Live data from Hacker News

Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

reuters.com

131–140 of 365 posts

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#131
All: this thread quickly degenerated into a hellish flamewar. Please don't post nationalistic flamewar comments to HN, and do not post cheap internet insinuations about astroturfing, brigading, shilling, spying, foreign agents and communist party operatives. If you're worried about abuse, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. You're not welcome to fill HN threads with fervid imaginations about commenters who have different views than you. HN is a big place and that's the very simple explanation for why not everyone agrees. I've posted about this many times, both about astroturfing in general and China-related topics in particular:

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

There have been ugly mob behaviors on this site in the past, which have hounded people out of the community. Is that who you want to be? who we want to be? No it is not. Yet it happens all too easily, and the people doing it don't even realize that they're doing it—they just think they're righteously defending truth or freedom or the home team. If you don't want to be that way, then err on the side of respect, benefit of the doubt, and not jumping to predetermined conclusions. (If you do want to be that way, please find some other site to post to.)

We ban accounts that break these rules, so please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN as intended. It has a very specific intended spirit and most of the people who've posted in this thread so far have been breaking it.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... where's multi-billionaire Xiao Jianhua? After being abducted from the Four Seasons in Hong Kong by the CCP, he popped up to explain he was seeking medical treatment on the mainland (haha) three years ago , and nobody's heard from him since. Also laying low? Or do you think he's discovered a new love of mining rare earth minerals in Xinjiang? C'mon now, this isn't exactly some big exoneration one way or the othe…

And where's Chen Qiushi -- or any of the other journalists who covered the draconian coronavirus measures taken in China, who suddenly disappeared a year ago?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-54277439

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#133
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Chinese person's perspective about China and its politics/government on HN/Reddit? Enjoy the following classics: 1) you're brainwashed. 2) how do you justify the human rights violations? 3) you're a CCP shill 4) Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP? Good luck!

Chinese here (and sorry for the bad English). I agree with everything FooBarWidget said, and it's super annoying every time HN has an anti-China boner based on ridiculous things (don't even let me start about Reddit.) And then, I found myself.. don't want to risk saying anything here with my main account (hence this throwaway account), even if it's defending China. Will anything happen to me? Very unlikely, even if I…

I'm posting as my main account and I hope the downvotes are the only repercussion. I think it's fair to bring attention to when the discourse gets a little one-sided.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#134

In the last Hacker News thread, people were so sure that the government jailed him for criticizing the party. Even though there was no evidence of such, people just assumed it MUST be true because the CCP MUST be evil. And before Jack Ma "disappeared", people were worried about Jack Ma and Ant Group being a national security threat, because of his ties with CCP. Because "CCP evil". No matter the facts, people just co…

This comment is doing exactly the thing it accuses others of doing: not understanding and painting with too wide a brush.

Of course on a forum you are simultaneously going to find large swathes of people that take on seemingly contradicting viewpoints. Interpreting that to mean that all participants in these discussions are hypocrites or anti-China is either an emotional reaction or a failure to consider the truth of diversity on a forum.

Some people view high profile Chinese business people to effectively be extensions of the Chinese political class. Look at what happened to Canada after they arrested Meng Manzhou for the rationale behind these views. The success of a Chinese company in a foreign market should be considered as a potential security risk for any security analyst that still knows the meaning of the word dilligence. Whether it is only potential or actuality is another matter.

As for lying low, some people are still hoping to hear from the panchen lama; it is totally rational for people to consider that China will arrest critics or people it views as risks and that those people may never be heard from again or their apparent freedom may be staged. There are many other examples. People in the West have a concept of due process that the government--and perhaps the people--of China does not seem to accept as reasonable or necessary.

All of these views are possible to hold simultaneously with varying degrees of nuance, and certainly some people hold some or none of these views again with varying degrees of nuance. There is an understanding of China and how China does not necessarily share some things viewed as ideals by some participants here. There is no West vs China, because "the West" is not a unified set of ideals or viewpoints, as any cursory survey of views on healthcare, military, the treatment of Assange, etc. will quickly reveal.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much more mental gymnastics do we need? I think it's time to accept that he WASN'T jailed rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. The HN commentary went from 'Jack Ma is a national security threat' to 'Jack Ma is a poor victim of the CCP will will never be seen again' to 'this is fake, he is still jailed'. If he shows up someone else in person next time, will pe…

I think that from their several actions that China/CCP is not the best example of democracy and criticism acceptance So no I don't buy the retoric of misunderstood China > I am from China and I have family in China. So you're not behind the great firewall and don't need to contend with official internet censorship.

> It has been perfectly clear with the Chinese negligence around Covid

Urgh, let me tell you some facts.

On February 1 2020, I travelled from China (not Wuhan) back to the Netherlands, having aborted my holiday early. Wuhan was in lockdown for a week at that point, and my flight to the Netherlands was the very last one I could get. At that point, the WHO also declared global emergency.

I arrived in Germany and the Netherlands. What happened in the airports? No temperature checks or other checks. Nobody who took note of my name for contact tracing. Nothing.

Back in the Netherlands, I called the CDC: can I get tested? Reply: no, not even if I pay for it myself. I ask: do I need to quarantine myself? Reply: nope.

I didn't trust that. Chinese media has been raging for weeks about how infectious and dangerous it was, and that it could be spread asymptomatically. So I voluntarily quarantined myself and my family for 2 weeks. Turned out I wasn't infected.

Up until March or April or so, I saw on tv and newspapers and how multiple western governments called covid just a flu, that we're "well prepared", even criticizing the lockdown in Wuhan as a human rights violation.

You want to talk negligence? Okay, China could have done a better job, but let's say they were earlier by 2 weeks and reported to WHO mid-Dec rather than late-Dec. Would that have changed anything when for months the west totally dismissed the virus as being dangerous, and gleed at China's misfortune?

> and how they treated the doctors that sounded the alarm

Li Wenliang was not jailed. He was reprimanded by the police, and could go back to work the next day. He wasn't the first one: the first doctor who said something was Jiang Jixian, whose work led to the WHO escalation on Dec 31, 1 day after Li Wenliang said something. The Chinese court later ruled that the police's treatment of Li Wenliang was unjustified. The police then apologized.

See also: "Some whistleblowers are more equal than others" https://www.mango-press.com/some-whistleblowers-are-more-equ...

> the HK issue and with the Uighur concentration camps

These are whole different, and rather complicated topics. I could go into them, but I need to know from you: do you actually want to discuss, or is this meant as a diss to me?

> So you're not behind the great firewall huh? Reminds me of Chinese agents bullying Chinese students in Canada to not badmouth the government

So what? I don't "bully" others for disagreeing with me about China, I talk to them. If you ask me whether those students should bully, then I'd say no: they should discuss. That's something they need to learn.

But the same applies to a great many people in the west, who despite being raised in a free society, prefer to cancel rather than talk.

Still, that doesn't mean that those students' support for China is not genuine or legit.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#136

> In the 50-second video, Ma, dressed in a navy pullover, spoke directly to the camera from a room with grey marble walls and a striped carpet. It was not clear from the video or the Tianmu News article where he was speaking from. Uh, resurfacing from a fancy prison cell, perhaps? Can anyone find the video? EDIT: Here's the raw video: https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13517514568277196... . If you watch his…

Most CEOs will read from a PR script at opening ceremonies for events and conferences. Apparently - as mentioned in the article and clarified in other comments here - it was a PR moment in a charitable event he’s been doing for a while.

No need to make it up to be more eerie than it is

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for digging up that video. Telling that the Global Times (CPC-affiliated media) refers to him as the "former executive chairman of #Alibaba" , and that he's making the video from some "rural teacher-themed social welfare event" . This isn't what normally happens to billionaire corporate executives, unless they've been convicted of violating the law.

Good point — the whole matter really is quite strange, whatever one believes about China/the CPC aside. It does seem there's an established pipeline for this sort of "deplatforming" that the CPC has gotten very adept at pushing high-status people through.

Kill the chicken to scare the monkey.

It's less strange than time tested.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#138
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Chinese person's perspective about China and its politics/government on HN/Reddit? Enjoy the following classics: 1) you're brainwashed. 2) how do you justify the human rights violations? 3) you're a CCP shill 4) Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP? Good luck!

Okay, maybe I'm missing something, but someone posted[0] that exact phrase #4 at the same time you posted it. What gives? PS: I agree with your points and am saddened the anti-China rhetoric has been flooding HN over the past years. I read a comment here long ago that said "HN is full of neocons" or something like that, but I can't help but believe there's also state backed propaganda (shills) fomenting sinophobia. […

Well, there is also that thing with those concentration camps which have come to our attention in the last few years, may I suggest that to be one of the reasons for the "sinophobia" (stupid word, I do not see any irrational fear of China here, what I do see is criticism which is not the same thing, at all) seen here?

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP? What if they don't want to? There is a trend in the west that pretends like dissent would overflow in China if it wasn't suppressed, but what if people genuinely actually like the government? That doesn't seem to fit the narrative that people have the agency to think differently from the status quo Americans would like to impose upon the world. >I'm worried about wha…

> but what if people genuinely actually like the government? If that were the case then there would be no need for the censorship.

I didn't mean all the people all the time. But this harranguing of any random individual asking them why they aren't criticizing the CCP with every living breath seems to count on the idea that they are afraid to speak up and/or brainwashed with evil oriental commie magic.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#140
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's gaslighting. The pro-China crowd has gotten very good at this. Look for the downvotes on posts with countervailing narratives.

Please don't break the site guidelines like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html This sort of perception is notoriously unreliable and is pretty much entirely in the eye of the beholder. The majority of comments in this thread, and basically every other HN thread on the topic, are not at all as you describe.

Hey @dang, I appreciate your comment and will take it into account. I certainly appreciate your moderation and how quiet a place HN is in comparison with the rest of the rowdy world & internet. It's certainly a special place and I don't want to disturb that.

As you can see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843540, I do try to reach out where the opportunity is available, even with those I might disagree with.

--

It seems you think this issue is particularly inflammatory to me (and others) because of "nationalistic interests," but for me it's much more about friendships. I have a group of Falun Gong practicing friends in Amsterdam, my math tutor was Taiwanese and had family who disappeared on the mainland, and I know a lot of people who were lucky enough to get out of China, including a very good family friend.

On the other hand, an opthamologist who almost treated me and whose clinic I regularly visit stepped down after being ousted as a member of the Thousand Talents Program (see https://timesofsandiego.com/education/2019/07/08/ucsd-doctor...).

--

With respect, I do think there is a lot of gaslighting in this thread (from my side as well, perhaps).

I'll refrain from posting such things in the future.

Post reply on HN