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Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

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Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#131

Post by nvarsj »

sergeykish wrote: post #124
trisiak wrote: post #51

I too suffered from wrist pain and fatigue in the past. The experimentation with different layouts helped a little but it felt like micro-optimization. What actually resolved the problem was switching to an unorthodox ergonomic keyboard where none of the keys required straining or unnecessary effort (kinesis advantage, using a different one these days). Also, most common problems were caused by placement of special k…

What helped we is switch from C++ to Ruby. I see analogy to guitar player here too. And Dvorak of course. I can use it on notebook.

> What helped we is switch from C++ to Ruby

This is a great point. Some languages have terrible ergonomics - those which rely heavily on brackets which are poorly placed on a keyboard. Ergodox layouts tend to map brackets to the second layer on ER,DF,CV keys to mitigate this. But it's better for languages to not require braces at all.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#132

Post by mcv »

Cool idea. "Database" is sadly still a primarily left-handed word, but I understand that's because the goal is not to change anything about querty that doesn't need to be changed. I think moving the 'e' to the right is a good idea.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#133

Post by toyg »

beaker52 wrote: post #128
thenoblesunfish wrote: post #86

DON'T DO IT* I absolutely love Workman. It's gorgeous. I spent months learning it, getting fast with it. I even got the supercool matrix style keyboard, I was so into it. But now I use QWERTY, and I sold my matrix style keyboard. Why? 1. Using the standard is useful. Other people's computers use QWERTY. Terminals for typing things in airports use QWERTY. When you have to do first aid stuff on your system, you're not…

Also wouldn't recommend. I switched to Colemak back in the day. Switched all my phone keyboard and everything. I was a typing god. Started a new job where I ended up having to switch to qwerty for pairing sessions, typing like I was using a computer keyboard for the first time, never mind interviews where one might need to live code on a foreign machine. Having to explain "oh hai, yeah I actually use a different keyb…

What’s so difficult about it?

On Windows you just install an extra MSI for Colemak, add it to the standard desktop build and you’re off (you use win-spacebar to switch to the new keyboard quickly when sitting at the keyboard).

On Mac you just switch to that layout (cannot remember the hotkey but there is one), no install required.

Linux likely has 15 different ways to do it and you just have to pick the easiest one for you.

You just need to have a chat with your boss. He’ll probably be happy to allow something that requires zero budget and ticks an extra “ergonomics” checkbox.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#134

Post by mcv »

leotaku wrote: post #34
shirro wrote: post #23

A lot of keyboards optimize the wrong things at least as far as programming is concerned. All the optimizations seem to focus on letters but most of the time an editor or shell can auto complete keywords or identifiers. A ridiculous number of symbols seem to be a very long way from the home keys on weak fingers with modifiers required to access them. If I had to write huge amounts of plain prose and had RSI I think I…

My country uses the QWERTZ layout which has dedicated keys for German umlauts. I mostly type in English however, so I've bound "([{" to "öäü". I now type umlauts using "AltGr+oau". It's definitely not a perfect solution, but it has worked well for me so far.

Dutch uses standard QWERTY, but does accents and tremas automatically if you type a letter that can have an accent/trema after you type a single or double quote, or a tilde. It's extremely annoying when programming.

US International keyboard layout does this to in Windows. It seems the only type of keyboard that doesn't do it is the standard US keyboard, but that one doesn't have a Euro sign. I'd like to have a board with a Euro sign, but without messing up my quotes.

What would be ideal for me is if I could type alt+quote to make it an accent over the next letter. Or even better, the latex way: \'e.

I would love to know how to customise this in various OSs. I suppose it should be possible.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#135

Post by toyg »

jarnagin wrote: post #62

One thing that often goes unmentioned when I see discussions about these sorts of alternate layouts is that, particularly for programmers, the keyboard isn’t just a simple device for entering text, it’s the mechanism through which we interact with our computing environment, and most tooling is either specifically or unintentionally designed to enhance the productivity of people typing in QWERTY. Whether it’s simple c…

To be honest I never have any problem with that sort of thing with Colemak in terminals.

The only issue I have is in games, where WASM is a religion.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#136

Post by fho »

cuddlybacon wrote: post #98
dmix wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was curious about vim as well. I wonder if the defaults of vi are somehow optimized for QWERTY. This thread convinced me to try switching to Dvorak but I'm a bit scared after reading your comment. It's not clear from your comment, did you switch back to QWERTY or are you still giving it a shot?

> I wonder if the defaults of vi are somehow optimized for QWERTY. Only hjkl for movement. Everything else is fine. I still wouldn't make the switch again. You'd get more millage from spending the ~2 weeks doing a bunch of speed typing practice with qwerty.

The problem is that most of the typing in vim is based on muscle memory ... thinking about it I have no idea what the keys I use for commenting out code.

I tried to learn Dvorak and later Neo ... Not being able to use Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V like I was used to was annoying ... not being able to use vim anymore was the reason I stayed with QWERTY (QWERTZ in German).

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#137

Post by V-2 »

daffy wrote: post #122
V-2 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm long aware of this website. Fascinating stuff. I wonder how this Workman Layout would fare, evaluted by their algorithm?

There is an analysis of Workman here: http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives

Indeed, thanks!

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#138

Post by clarry »

moonchild wrote: post #105
jeromenerf wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I like the thumb keys (2 per thumb would be enough for me though), the tap/hold feature and the central special keys on ergodox for instance. I have not found anything like that for laptops. Not even a split space bar. The tap/hold feature is possible at the os level, with caveats. I usually map the key left to the space bar to Enter.

What is tap/hold? I believe some people have done portable kinesis builds, which could be an option in tandem with a laptop.

> What is tap/hold?

Tap a key, get a symbol. Hold the key, get something else (perhaps a modifier).

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#139

Post by robotmay »

bbx wrote: post #115

I think typing efficiently on a keyboard is akin to playing the piano with good technique. I often see musicians playing piano (or keyboard synths) with improprer technique. They move their wrist a lot, bend their finger backwards to apply pressure, and tense their fingers by laying them flat. This causes stress in the motion and fatigue over time. All (or most) the pressing power should come from the tip and the pha…

Similar experience here, and in fact I use a floating typing style more akin to playing a piano instead of sitting on the home row. I actually did end up with bad RSI for a year, however, caused by typing on a laptop, but I now realise that was due to the extension of my arms.

For a while I used Workman on an Ergodox keyboard, and it was very nice. But I learnt that I actually love QWERTY when I type in my floating style, and ultimately moved back to it and a Topre keyboard instead (which is a nice mid-point between non-mechanical and mechanical boards).

I've just taken the piano back up after 18 years, and so far don't seem to be overly straining myself, so I'm hopefully on the right track with my technique. Years of playing diatonic accordion have hopefully used many of the same muscles!

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#140

Post by toyg »

lawn wrote: post #108
toyg wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree, Colemak didn't help me there, my rate of mistakes for special characters is still way too high. There are keyboards that move special characters to their own layer, basically using a meta key for all of them. I'm tempted to try something like that, but stealing meta-combinations is always painful (probably the best candidate would be CapsLock, which I tend to remap to Cmd/Ctrl but never actually got…

With a QMK programmable keyboard you can turn any key into a modifier if held, while operating as a regular key when tapped. Another way is to get another keyboard with more thumb modifiers.

My Kinesis Freestyle at home has all sorts of programmable stuff, wouldn't be a problem there - the problem is that I have to share my time with a (Windows) laptop at work, so I try to find standard crossplatform solutions. I installed autohotkey and a bunch of other things but they look a bit complicated. I'm tempted to just get a second keyboard.
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