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National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

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Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#131

Post by andrewla »

For reference, here is the linked list of demands by the national organizers [1]:

> 1. Immediate improvements to the conditions of prisons and prison policies that recognize the humanity of imprisoned men and women.

> 2. An immediate end to prison slavery. All persons imprisoned in any place of detention under United States jurisdiction must be paid the prevailing wage in their state or territory for their labor.

> 3. The Prison Litigation Reform Act must be rescinded, allowing imprisoned humans a proper channel to address grievances and violations of their rights.

> 4. The Truth in Sentencing Act and the Sentencing Reform Act must be rescinded so that imprisoned humans have a possibility of rehabilitation and parole. No human shall be sentenced to Death by Incarceration or serve any sentence without the possibility of parole.

> 5. An immediate end to the racial overcharging, over-sentencing, and parole denials of Black and brown humans. Black humans shall no longer be denied parole because the victim of the crime was white, which is a particular problem in southern states.

> 6. An immediate end to racist gang enhancement laws targeting Black and brown humans.

> 7. No imprisoned human shall be denied access to rehabilitation programs at their place of detention because of their label as a violent offender.

> 8. State prisons must be funded specifically to offer more rehabilitation services.

> 9. Pell grants must be reinstated in all US states and territories.

> 10. The voting rights of all confined citizens serving prison sentences, pretrial detainees, and so-called “ex-felons” must be counted. Representation is demanded. All voices count!

[1] https://www.dropbox.com/s/r5cr546jlscgkhj/Prison%20Strike.pd...

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#132

Post by rule_follower »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

>Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit.

Sitting in a cage or a large room with other inmates with nothing productive to do can itself be considered a form of psychological torture, which is precisely what some proponents of prison industry have argued: https://sci-hub.tw/10.2307/1147470

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#133

Post by nrb »

pmiller2 wrote: post #45
nrb wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A non-incarcerated person has agency. They have a choice of what work to do, where that work takes place, when to work, the ability to negotiate wages, etc.

Not being independently wealthy, I don’t have a choice to work or not. In that sense, if I wanted not to work, then, yes, I would be working against my will. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery Edit: I should clarify, I have the choice not to work and be homeless, but that’s such a deplorable choice, it doesn’t constitute a real, free choice.

Sure you do have a choice; you can go live in the wilderness and live entirely self-sufficiently. Just because a choice is unreasonable to you doesn't make it less of a choice.

More importantly (and my entire point) is that you have a choice of exactly what kind of work you want to do. That self-determination differentiates you from a prisoner or slave.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#134

Post by ryandrake »

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

Your argument assumes that the goal of prisons is to keep their customers from returning to prison.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#135

Post by kevmo »

BucketSort wrote: post #130

I'm very impressed that we don't actually bill prisoners for rent, food, etc and if they can't pay, loan them money through a high interest loan that they can never pay off. Maybe they could do this and reduce interest on the loan if you work in prison. Whatever story works to keep people blind to the fact that the state abuses the shit out of its people.

We do.

https://money.cnn.com/2015/09/18/news/economy/prison-fees-in...

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#136

Post by macintux »

rayiner wrote: post #98
fzeroracer wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One is an adult. They have freedoms which we, as a society, have taken away due to whatever offense they have committed (potentially as light as possession of Marijuana). One is a child. They do not have the freedoms which we, as a society, have given them yet due to their age, lack of maturity and lack of means.

What is the logic for giving more preferential treatment to someone who is a ward because they did something bad, versus a child who is a ward despite being completely innocent?

My argument for treating prisoners better than children (at least in regard to being paid for working) is that once you leave prison, you're likely in a really bad situation unless you have money to help with the transition.

Finding a job is tough as an ex-con. Your support network may well be gone, or it may be entirely composed of people who enabled you in the first place.

Most kids have years of supported, gradual transition from unpaid chores to fully-independent adults, although there are obviously exceptions to that. I feel really badly for kids who enter adulthood from foster care.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#137

Post by RIMR »

reaperducer wrote: post #83
throwaway0x7647 wrote: post #53

My brother just went to jail and I’m just learning how crazy some things are there. They keep the bright lights on until midnight, and turn them back on at 4am (and require the inmates to get up). No one can properly function after repeated nights of less than 4 hours of sleep. I seriously think the jail just wants to push people to misbehave so they stay there longer and the jail can reap more profits.

They keep the bright lights on until midnight, and turn them back on at 4am (and require the inmates to get up). It's one of several measures to keep the inmates docile. See also: feeding them low-quality food, and only enough for survival. A hungry, sleep-deprived prisoner isn't going to revolt, and after release may think twice about going back.

Just because torture might work as a deterrent is absolutely no excuse.

Sleep deprivation and malnourishment are forms of torture, and constitute human rights violations.

It's supposed to be a correctional system. How are we supposed to reduce recidivism when the system is designed to destroy lives?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#138

Post by ndespres »

pmarreck wrote: post #123
makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I don’t disagree but just wanted to say something: The whole point of money was to make it possible for 2+ good actors to do legal (and different) work/goods/services for each other while profiting. Most people who end up in prison were “bad actors” by definition. The system was not benefiting from them. And thus I can’t help thinking that they don’t really deserve any of the system’s monetary medium of exchange.

I think you are wrong about "the whole point of money" and do not believe that profit is a requirement for currency to function. Money has many simple purposes outside of profit.

Even taking your claim at face value, whether or not someone "deserves" to benefit from some profit-based exchange of labor for currency seems irrelevant. If work has a concrete value and someone is unable to receive fair compensation for that work, and all of the value is received by someone else who did not do the work, this is inherently unfair and unethical (and by definition, slavery).

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#139

Post by wu-ikkyu »

rayiner wrote: post #69
fzeroracer wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're comparing grown adults to children in this scenario you're making a fallacious comparison right out of the gate.

That's one difference, sure, but the two situations are similar as well. In both cases, a person's basic life needs (food, housing, etc.) are met by someone else. When it comes to children, we generally accept that forcing people to contribute to their own upkeep is not wrong, whether it's working on the farm or cooking, etc. Why is it different for prisoners?

Because recidivism is a bad

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#140

Post by haraldurt »

pmarreck wrote: post #123
makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I don’t disagree but just wanted to say something: The whole point of money was to make it possible for 2+ good actors to do legal (and different) work/goods/services for each other while profiting. Most people who end up in prison were “bad actors” by definition. The system was not benefiting from them. And thus I can’t help thinking that they don’t really deserve any of the system’s monetary medium of exchange.

Is it preferred to release two bad actors or to release two good actors? Being in prison is a punishment, but it is also rehabilitation (ideally).
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