National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions • Hacker News Board

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#121

Post by SahAssar » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #98

fzeroracer wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One is an adult. They have freedoms which we, as a society, have taken away due to whatever offense they have committed (potentially as light as possession of Marijuana). One is a child. They do not have the freedoms which we, as a society, have given them yet due to their age, lack of maturity and lack of means.

What is the logic for giving more preferential treatment to someone who is a ward because they did something bad, versus a child who is a ward despite being completely innocent?

Are you arguing for child labor or are you just unintentionally doing it?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#122

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #64

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners. Teaching, training, therapy, yes, please, absolutely. Humane conditions and treatment from the guards most definitely. But minimum wage? I’m not sure. I like the idea of inmates being able to complete their sentence with some funds they’ve saved up to help get back on their feet. But that’s what halfway houses are supposed to support I guess?

Either you like a rule for minimum wage or you dont, if you start choosing who gets it you subvert the very core principle that people deserve a sustenance wage.

It would be reasonable to devote 10-20% of the wages to prison maintenance or victims reparations, but saying their labor is worth 1$ is preposterous.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#123

Post by pmarreck » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I don’t disagree but just wanted to say something:

The whole point of money was to make it possible for 2+ good actors to do legal (and different) work/goods/services for each other while profiting.

Most people who end up in prison were “bad actors” by definition. The system was not benefiting from them. And thus I can’t help thinking that they don’t really deserve any of the system’s monetary medium of exchange.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#124

Post by TheSoftwareGuy » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #77

kevmo wrote: post #50

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." - 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution Whenever anyone says slavery no longer exists in America, I point them to this. The foundational document of our system of government expressly allows slavery. We house…

Can any lawyer comment? A reading of the 13th amendment seems to justify involuntary servitude as a punishment for a crime, does this mean prison labor that isn't included in a sentence a violation of the 13th amendment? Just reading of this seems to allow one to make an legal argument along those lines, so I imagine there must have been some case that lead to a clarification of the 13th in the intervening century or…

Except there is over a century of precedent, and no court is going to overturn that now. The 13th amendment is not some new discovery that the courts are waiting for someone to make an argument based on

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#125

Post by api_or_ipa » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

fipple wrote: post #107

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I think they should pay rent and should be paid proper wages, to accelerate reintroduction to society. Don’t do any work? Get the worst cell, with rent written off. Work as a firefighter? Get $30/hour which you can use to get better living conditions and better food in prison.

You're totally right. What better way to show inmates the virtue of living an upright life than to treat them just like real people. If you pay them 85c/hr they'll resent The Man even harder and see a life of crime as the only way they'll ever succeed. Pay them for their hardwork and they'll learn they can succeed in life by hardwork, determination and honesty, all virtues that prison _should_ be about instilling.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#126

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:57 PM UTC

ada1981 wrote: post #112

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. This actually seems like a pretty good deal, what would you pay to get a day off your sentence? That said, I think the Prision system is fucked, has horrible incentives, private companies abuse bought prison labor, etc. etc. But I actually felt like thi…

> It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison.

The perverse incentive of increasing prison times to generate more cheap labor.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#127

Post by meowface » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:57 PM UTC

fipple wrote: post #107

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I think they should pay rent and should be paid proper wages, to accelerate reintroduction to society. Don’t do any work? Get the worst cell, with rent written off. Work as a firefighter? Get $30/hour which you can use to get better living conditions and better food in prison.

Completely agreed. It also psychologically devalues legitimate work in the minds of prisoners. After working 10, 20, 30 years at grueling jobs that pay you $1 or less, combined with inability to work almost anywhere after release due to having a conviction, it's not a big shock that theft or selling drugs will seem like a good option once they get out.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#128

Post by Broken_Hippo » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:58 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #92

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

s/employed/enslaved/g One thing we can do right now is start to use the correct language. Involuntary labor is not employment and we shouldn't call it such. There is even a market where you can buy their products. https://unicor.gov/index.aspx You can even outsource work to prison slaves. https://vimeo.com/125010485 There are even private companies that have prison slaves work for them and keep the profits. http://vl…

It should be noted that the US Constitution allows prisoners to be treated as slaves: > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Just because it is in the constitution doesn't make it right. That is a document designed to be changed, after all.

Women couldn't vote for quite some time. Some people weren't fully human. Only landowners could vote. And so on.

Furthermore, it being in the constitution still doesn't detract from it being slavery.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#129

Post by ZainRiz » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:59 PM UTC

pmarreck wrote: post #123

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I don’t disagree but just wanted to say something: The whole point of money was to make it possible for 2+ good actors to do legal (and different) work/goods/services for each other while profiting. Most people who end up in prison were “bad actors” by definition. The system was not benefiting from them. And thus I can’t help thinking that they don’t really deserve any of the system’s monetary medium of exchange.

Except they're not really "bad actors"

Most people in prison today are there because of "drug offenses" which usually means they got caught doing drugs themselves (not dealing drugs or being involved in drug induced crimes).

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#130

Post by BucketSort » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:59 PM UTC

I'm very impressed that we don't actually bill prisoners for rent, food, etc and if they can't pay, loan them money through a high interest loan that they can never pay off. Maybe they could do this and reduce interest on the loan if you work in prison. Whatever story works to keep people blind to the fact that the state abuses the shit out of its people.