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Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

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Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#131

Post by zavi »

singularity2001 wrote: post #119
eigenvector wrote: post #86

A common refrain that you will likely soon hear from Google executives and board members is that it's better to have access to a censored Google than no Google at all. The problem is that when Google took a stance against censorship, users behind the Great Firewall or other censorship regimes knew that if they managed to reach www.google.com through VPN or other means they were getting uncensored results. Now, no one…

even at google.com you can't be sure whether to get the real google, or just your personalized bubble.

Just go incognito

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#132

Post by zaarn »

codeka wrote: post #25
ronnier wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is, it’ll sit just fine with them and we won’t see any push back.

What makes you say that? See, eg https://theintercept.com/2018/08/03/google-search-engine-chi...

In another thread about this I asked a Googler, who was outraged of being accussed to have done nothing about it or planning to do nothing about, what they planned to do and there was no response at all.

Googlers don't care, they get to have Google on their resume!

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#133

Post by est »

eigenvector wrote: post #86

A common refrain that you will likely soon hear from Google executives and board members is that it's better to have access to a censored Google than no Google at all. The problem is that when Google took a stance against censorship, users behind the Great Firewall or other censorship regimes knew that if they managed to reach www.google.com through VPN or other means they were getting uncensored results. Now, no one…

It's simple to solve, I search exclusively use google.ca and blocked all js and cookie on this domain.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#134

Post by zavi »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #104
eigenvector wrote: post #86

A common refrain that you will likely soon hear from Google executives and board members is that it's better to have access to a censored Google than no Google at all. The problem is that when Google took a stance against censorship, users behind the Great Firewall or other censorship regimes knew that if they managed to reach www.google.com through VPN or other means they were getting uncensored results. Now, no one…

Yep you can guarantee that the Chinese Government will use its newfound leverage with Google to pressure it on a wide array of fronts. What about global searches about Tienanmen square or Falun Gong, is Google going to walk away from billions and billions of profit to say no to that? Its pretty clear they have no moral issue with censoring for profit.

> Its pretty clear they have no moral issue with censoring for profit.

This has been evidently true since they didn't leave Europe after Right to Be Forgotten. They make good revenue in Europe which justifies having to censor results.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#135

Post by fauigerzigerk »

cm2187 wrote: post #122
eigenvector wrote: post #86

A common refrain that you will likely soon hear from Google executives and board members is that it's better to have access to a censored Google than no Google at all. The problem is that when Google took a stance against censorship, users behind the Great Firewall or other censorship regimes knew that if they managed to reach www.google.com through VPN or other means they were getting uncensored results. Now, no one…

But where does censorship starts? Google already have to comply with local laws everywhere it operates. Is the right to be forgotten censorship? Is removing piratebay from the listing censorship? Or does it have to do with anything that offends a US liberal political stance? Then is Google’s mission really meant to be a propaganda tool for a particular political viewpoint?

Political censorship that is supposed to keep current rulers in power by shielding them from criticism is categorically different from all other types of censorship.

The difference is not gradual as you suggest, because political censorship works on a meta-level. It obstructs the democratic mechanism by which all other types of censorship can be debated and ultimately lifted.

Opposing political censorship is not just another political viewpoint. It is a prerequisite to freely discussing and changing political viewpoints in the first place.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#136

Post by zavi »

miguelrochefort wrote: post #38

What's the difference between Google adopting Chinese regulations in China and Google adopting GDPR regulations in Europe?

GDPR doesn't force Google to censor search results.

Right to Be Forgotten does though. Just replace one with another and your argument becomes valid.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#137

Post by marchenko »

cpeterso wrote: post #84
Leary wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google's situation is similar to many American authors' experience when confronted with the choice of 1) not publishing in China. and 2) publishing a censored version of their book. The decision is not an easy one, even for those who support freedom of information. Those who deem Google's actions unethical often fail to realize that without Google or foreign books, Chinese internet users and readers will have less ac…

> without Google or foreign books, Chinese internet users and readers will have less access to information. If Google is using the same censorship filters as other search engines operating in China, is censored Google actually providing new or different information?

This is a good point. What value is Google search in China adding beyond better-targeted and more profitable ads - a filter bubble within a filter bubble? Will Google Books be available? Is Project Gutenberg available in China?

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#138

Post by the_grue »

sologoub wrote: post #127
ansy wrote: post #45

At the risk of sounding nationalistic, I think companies in the United States and other democratic countries should reconsider any and all business relationships with authoritarian regimes like those in China and Russia. And I say regimes because most "companies" in these countries are really just instruments of the state. There may be money to be made, but not only are companies like Google tightening these authorit…

Can’t speak for China, but in Russia the greatest level of popular political activity in recent times was during the peak of the economic prosperity for the average Russian - circa 2012-2013. People were actually driving around Moscow with stickers and banners calling the main political party out for corruption and theft of state property/funds. Then came the sanctions and 50% plunge in value of the currency. Incomes…

Let's get the logic straight here. Economic stagnation is a result of living under an aggressive totalitarian state, not of foreign sanctions on that state. You personally are unfortunate to live in that state and suffer from the side effects of wars it's waging, but Russians as a nation fully support the regime and have been empowering it for many years, therefore I feel they deserve what they're getting and more, until they regain their wits once again. Sanctions or not, the opposition movement of 2011-2013 in Russia had never had popular support, anyway, as the wide population chose to stick to its imperialistic ambitions and ignorance.

The same argument can be made about China. But even in badly behaving states that are not supported by their own population, the effects of foreign actions can only be viewed as a side effect, not as a central part of the narrative. Same as civilian casualties in a purely defensive war are only an unfortunate, but often necessary side effect of one state defending itself from the other.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#139

Post by cageface »

dnomad wrote: post #114
cageface wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right that the USA has committed many sins of its own but freedom of expression in the USA is still protected to a degree unthinkable in places like China or Russia or Vietnam. I can go on Facebook right now and post any opinion I like of my government. See how long you have to wait for a knock on your door if you try this in one of those other countries. The censorship demands made by China, for example, abso…

> I can go on Facebook right now and post any opinion I like of my government. No you can't. Facebook regularly censors content just like every other rational organization on the planet that hosts a forum. (Though it's a bit amusing to hear how free Americans think themselves to be when so many of them struggle to get basic healthcare.) > The censorship demands made by China, for example, absolutely are of a differen…

I didn't downvote you but what you're saying is just trivially, factually untrue and you're conflating several different things. Healthcare in the US is a mess and the evils of US foreign policy are well documented but to claim that there is no significant difference between the degree of control that China and the US exert over the internet is just silly and not at all dependent on any pesky "facts".

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#140

Post by dsfyu404ed »

zavi wrote: post #130
eigenvector wrote: post #86

A common refrain that you will likely soon hear from Google executives and board members is that it's better to have access to a censored Google than no Google at all. The problem is that when Google took a stance against censorship, users behind the Great Firewall or other censorship regimes knew that if they managed to reach www.google.com through VPN or other means they were getting uncensored results. Now, no one…

> Google knows where you live, where you work, where you bank, who you're dating How do they know who I'm dating?

There are several ways to use information from your phone to take a good educated guess.
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