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Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

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Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#131

Post by e98cuenc »

farresito wrote: post #28
pfortuny wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, well, well, well... You should read the constitution and compare it to what the catalonian establishment is doing. The rule of law applies also to politicians.

If the law goes against one of the principles of democracy, the issue is with the law. What would your opinion be on a constitution that allows slavery? Because that was the case with a lot of constitutions in the past, and I think we would all agree that from a human right's point of view it was wrong. What's going on in Catalonia is illegal, but it's the democratically correct choice, and given what the Spanish gov…

And what's exactly the principle of democracy that the spanish constitution is violating?

The right of a part of a country to secede is not recognized by most constitutions around the world, and it is certainly not a "principle of democracy".

You want to change the constitution that rules your country, you get 2/3 of the votes of the parliament behind your vote and the constitution changes (or whatever rule your constitution has to allow a change). The whole point of a constitution is to have a stable body of law.

The Estatut went further than giving you something similar to what the Basque country has. It was ruled out because it was deemed incompatible with the constitution. This is exactly the same process any other country with a constitution follows.

As for the "rights" that you are not enjoying, the only one I hear repeatedly is one: collect and distribute your own taxes, because you pay more taxes than what is reinvested in Catalonia (of course this happens in roughly half of the country).

If New York asked to secede from the United States because they were oh so tired of paying more in taxes than the average in the US and receiving less than what they bring to the table (which is true for the vast majority of "rich" states) we will all see through the bullshit of the argument.

If you want to follow that argument, when do you stop? is it right for my city to secede because we do not want to support the poor in rural areas around us? (this is not a retorical question, some big cities have historically done that, and many of them today are tax havens). Can I as an individual decide to not pay my taxes because I pay more than what I receive?

Exactly what other right is missing in Catalonia?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#132

Post by collyw »

severino wrote: post #59
gfiorav wrote: post #24

I know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but: You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corrupti…

> The people leading this movement in Catalonia is riddled with corruption Every single party in Spain is riddled with corruption. But it doesn't mean they can't defend some ideology anymore. Besides, this is not some crazy politician's idea, but a movement from people ranging from the far left to the Christian democracy. Some parties changed their positions to "ride the wave", though. > There’s an estimated 40-45% o…

>Every single party in Spain is riddled with corruption.

The smaller the government the less corruption would be my assumption. Iceland seems to do a pretty good job of listening to its people.

> Polls means nothing. They can say whatever their planners want them to say.

Regarding polls, I have a theory that you should always lie if asked in one. The less validity that polls have, the less they can be used to manipulate the vote.

If no one believes what the polls say, there will have less influence and there be less chance of tactical voting, which is a real problem with our current version of democracy. Maybe some people think that tactical voting is a good thing, but in my lifetime it always seems to be the case that people are voting for the lesser of two evils, rather than what they actually believe in. Is that really what democracy is supposed to be about?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#133

Post by notspanishflu »

wott wrote: post #87
gfiorav wrote: post #24

I know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but: You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corrupti…

> There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence. Madrid would not react as brutally as they do if their intelligence services foresee such a result; they would just protest and deny vote legitimacy as they usually did the previous times, and let the vote be.

Applying the Law is "react brutally".

Are you really serious?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#134

Post by farresito »

notspanishflu wrote: post #116
farresito wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the law goes against one of the principles of democracy, the issue is with the law. What would your opinion be on a constitution that allows slavery? Because that was the case with a lot of constitutions in the past, and I think we would all agree that from a human right's point of view it was wrong. What's going on in Catalonia is illegal, but it's the democratically correct choice, and given what the Spanish gov…

Sure? The current situation doesn't have anything to do with Pujol family being close to go to jail for corruption? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Pujol

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. We are not talking about corruption here; we are talking about the right of self-determination.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#135

Post by notspanishflu »

oriol16 wrote: post #111
gfiorav wrote: post #24

I know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but: You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corrupti…

"You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say." It's understandable given the filibusterism, and outright prohibitions you would expect from the central government. Referendum has been proposed for 7 years and it was rejected every time. Catalonia has less corruption than Spain in average. Even though the National Pol…

There's a legal way to change the Spanish Constitution. Use it.

On the other hand, you can't be serious saying that in the region of Catalonia there's less corruption than in the whole Spain.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#136

Post by Oletros »

logronoide wrote: post #84
monodeldiablo wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why do you think that such radicalism has taken hold in Catalonia? Has it ever been thus, or could it possibly be in reaction to something...? And do you think that the Spanish government's actions will encourage unity or fan the flames of separatism? I think Catalan independence is a stupid idea, but you'd have to be pretty blinkered not to see the historical, ongoing heavy-handedness of the Spanish government i…

That "radicalism" has nothing to do with centralism. It has to do with radical nationalism of peripherical regional parties. They control the media, the education, the funding of heavily subsized companies with public money for more than 35 years. Spain is a very decentralized country, closer to a federal model. Right regional parties in Catalonia cannot keep on stealing from the public budget since the Great Recessi…

> They control the media, the education, the funding of heavily subsized companies with public money for more than 35 years

Like in the rest of Spain?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#137

Post by monodeldiablo »

logronoide wrote: post #77
monodeldiablo wrote: post #25

When I was dating a Croatian girl, I asked her which country reminded her most of pre-war Yugoslavia. "Spain," she said, without skipping a beat. "It's eerily similar. All power and wealth flowing to the capital in the center of the country? Check. Generations-long repression of regional, cultural, and linguistic diversity? Check. Awkward tendency to rewrite history to avoid open discussion of WWII-era atrocities? Ch…

Yugoslavia and Spain has nothing to do. For a start, we are a Monarchy . Maybe you should start with the basics about European history. Yugoslavia had a terrible civil war and they broke in pieces. There was no reason to keep on together. Spain had a more terrible civil war and Spain still exists as it was before. The history of Catalonia says that they have never really fought for independence. They are always looki…

> Maybe you should start with the basics about European history.

Don't condescend to me. I live in what was Yugoslavia. And that terrible civil war? I spend my days surrounded by its victims. None of them saw it coming. Nobody did until it was too late.

> Spain had a more terrible civil war and Spain still exists as it was before.

"More terrible"? By what measure? Half as many Spaniards died during the Spanish Civil War as were killed in the Yugoslav theatre during the same period. By the 1970s, the result was the same in both cases: A powerful federal state, ruled by a dictator, comprised of areas with strong regional identities.

And in the most recent Yugoslav Wars? Sure, fewer people died than in Spain, but only because over four million fled. That's almost ten times as many displaced people as in the Spanish Civil War. Don't pretend that Spain has a monopoly on suffering or is somehow special.

> The history of Catalonia says that they have never really fought for independence.

Historians (and Serbs) said the same thing about Croatians and Slovenes right up until they walked out of the constitutional congress.

I could go on...

Listen, one of us is definitely ignorant of history, but it ain't me. I strongly suggest you read up on the events preceding the Yugoslav Wars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars#Background

I think you'll find the parallels disconcerting.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#138

Post by e98cuenc »

kuroikyu wrote: post #78
mcdevilkiller wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves" The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonians to vote. I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote? (Also, as per the constitution, it is illegal…

Only Scotland voted on their referendum. The rest of the UK didn't nor couldn't vote. Would you let, let's say, France vote on your general elections to chose the next MP? Would you let a stranger choose the colour of the walls for your living room? Only Catalans can decide their own fate. It's up to them and no one else whether they stay or leave. I don't care which side wins but there must be a vote.

You can change your last sentence to say: "Only spanish can decide their own fate".

Only Scotland voted on their referendum, as agreed by the whole United Kingdom. USA did not allow southern states secede, Germany did not allow Bavaria secede, etc.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#139

Post by icebraining »

Mc_Big_G wrote: post #98

Funny to see all these Non-Spanish commenters that think they know what they're talking about. My wife is from Barcelona. I just spent 2 weeks there. Most Catalonians think the split, and the minority of people seeking it are fucking stupid. They are the Trumpsters of Spain. Truly strange to see most people here supporting the separatists. I don't necessarily agree with Spain's methods of dealing with this but many o…

If not being Spanish prevents one from having informed opinions, what makes you right?

Since we measuring Spanish penises, I'm half-Spanish myself and I find the characterization of "Trumpists" to be absurd. Yes, they are probably a minority, but so what? As for finding them fucking stupid, that's just politics, especially nowadays. Lots of people find Podemos to be fucking stupid, yet they still got 20%+ of the whole population vote.

In any case, people here are arguing for the principle, not the people. The analogy is not with supporting Trump, it's with defending his right to run at all. Now, the cases are different, but the point stands: defending the right to a referendum is not the same as defending a certain result.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#140

Post by notspanishflu »

severino wrote: post #74
dawkins wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Brutal repression of freedom of speech or demonstrations" "Spain's a stable republic" It's saddens me to see so much ignorance and nonsense. Keeping aside that Spain is a monarchy, in today's Catalonia people have to fight for basic things like the right to educate their children in Spanish, mayors who do not support the referendum are being harrased by the radicals... that is a little example of the "oppresion" you…

> in today's Catalonia people have to fight for basic things like the right to educate their children in Spanish I don't think there's a right to be taught in the language of your choice, the same way you can't decide which subjects your children will study. At least not in Spain. > mayors who do not support the referendum are being harrased by the radicals Maybe you should look at what's happening to those supportin…

"I don't think there's a right to be taught in the language of your choice".

But there is the right. Is in the Spanish Constitution. Article 3.

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