How Not to Fix Soccer • Hacker News Board

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#131

Post by GFischer » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 4:35 PM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #49

zazi wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes i see where you are coming from, some officials have been making bad calls. but some would argue that the refereeing is part of the game and instituting video replays etc might unnecessarily complicate matters and ruin the flow of the game. i play soccer in an amatuer league every weekend and although the referees generally are not of a high standard, I still enjoy it. its part of the game.

Disparate levels of play do not require arbitrariness in officiating. I don't do soccer at any level, but in my spare time I do work and hold a certification as a tournament judge for Magic (the card game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering ). The DCI -- sanctioning body for organized Magic -- has formal standards for officiating which work at and scale from the smallest local game shop tournaments all…

Hey, I'm also a former DCI Tournament Organizer AND sometimes unofficial football judge (not FIFA approved or anything :) ), and I'd say that FIFA does look for consistency.

DCI actually "gets" the fact that punishments should vary according to level of play (look for Rules Enforcement Levels or REL for short), and so do the local football judge federations - when I played a small football tournament, the judge routinely overlooked some small infractions that would warrant a call in a high-level match (not throwing correctly the ball from the sideline, ball position for free throws, etc).

FIFA officiating was pretty bad, true, and I personally think that instant replay (sparingly used) could improve it a bit as well.

I also like the harsher leagues (someone mentioned the English Premier) over the more foul-prone ones (Italy and my own country Uruguay are egregious examples)

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#132

Post by johnyzee » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 4:37 PM UTC

Here's a simple solution. The referee has the option to, if in doubt, consult someone with a video replay to determine a situation. He already has, and uses, the option to consult the line men, so it is not obvious to me why he shouldn't be able to consult someone who can watch a replay.

Another thing that for the life of me I cannot understand hasn't been implemented: A chip in the ball to determine off sides and whether the ball has crossed the goal or side lines.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#133

Post by philwelch » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 4:38 PM UTC

fortybillion wrote: post #128

philwelch wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always been a popular sport in America for amateur players, kids, and women (our women's team is the best in the world). Men's soccer on a professional level is trending upwards, though. In college towns and the like you'll see a handful of people wearing Man U shirts or something. MLS is expanding, and in some cities it catches on rather quickly (Seattle, for instance). It's still hampered by the fact that we h…

> it's a top 4 sport already (displacing hockey) Not a chance. The NHL is enjoying some of its highest ratings ever.

Regionally. They don't have national coverage at all, but I guess soccer doesn't either.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#134

Post by anamax » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 4:46 PM UTC

The way to stop "dives" is take every "he hit me" claim seriously by mandating a free substitution whenever a player makes that claim. Yes, the player can return with another free substitution after s\he's been checked out by an independent MD.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#135

Post by GFischer » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 4:56 PM UTC

mirkules wrote: post #86

I think the game could engulf America, if the Television networks are willing to air two 45+ minute halves without showing a single commercial. Note that every popular American sport has enough stoppage time during each break to show at least 4-5 highly-targeted ads. In my opinion, this is why the networks aren't really pushing soccer. On-pitch ads (i.e. sideline or sideboard ads) wouldn't really cut it because every…

Regional networks' needs could be served by digitally replacing in-game ads with customized ads for the region, or adding small ads at the bottom of the screen (that's the usual way)

This is already done in some countries for football (soccer). The thing is, it's probably harder and a more difficult sell than just airing the same old commercials during a break. It helps that football(soccer) is wildly popular so advertisers are willing to jump that hurdle in exchange for guaranteed audience in the football-mad countries.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#136

Post by GFischer » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 4:59 PM UTC

avar wrote: post #18

What football (I'm European) needs is much larger penalties for feigning injuries and taking dives. There's a good reason you see players rolling around on the pitch like bruised 4 year old girls, it's beneficial in the long run to the player feigning injury. You're more likely to win a beneficial free kick from it than two yellow cards in a row, so the practice continues. Some national football associations (e.g. It…

Indeed.. that's one big point. Maybe there could be a special review of the game for awarding those cards after the matches... (during the post-mortem)

Someone mentioned the English Premier League as an example of having a heavy stance on fouls and dives.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#137

Post by mirkules » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 5:37 PM UTC

GFischer wrote: post #135

mirkules wrote: post #86

I think the game could engulf America, if the Television networks are willing to air two 45+ minute halves without showing a single commercial. Note that every popular American sport has enough stoppage time during each break to show at least 4-5 highly-targeted ads. In my opinion, this is why the networks aren't really pushing soccer. On-pitch ads (i.e. sideline or sideboard ads) wouldn't really cut it because every…

Regional networks' needs could be served by digitally replacing in-game ads with customized ads for the region, or adding small ads at the bottom of the screen (that's the usual way) This is already done in some countries for football (soccer). The thing is, it's probably harder and a more difficult sell than just airing the same old commercials during a break. It helps that football(soccer) is wildly popular so adve…

Good point. It would require a different format of advertising than what America is used to, and that could be hard to sell.

Interesting chicken-and-egg problem, it would really take a combination of a brave network and brave advertisers to change the whole thing -- and so, the future looks bleak...

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#138

Post by ubernostrum » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 8:04 PM UTC

GFischer wrote: post #131

ubernostrum wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disparate levels of play do not require arbitrariness in officiating. I don't do soccer at any level, but in my spare time I do work and hold a certification as a tournament judge for Magic (the card game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering ). The DCI -- sanctioning body for organized Magic -- has formal standards for officiating which work at and scale from the smallest local game shop tournaments all…

Hey, I'm also a former DCI Tournament Organizer AND sometimes unofficial football judge (not FIFA approved or anything :) ), and I'd say that FIFA does look for consistency. DCI actually "gets" the fact that punishments should vary according to level of play (look for Rules Enforcement Levels or REL for short), and so do the local football judge federations - when I played a small football tournament, the judge routi…

DCI actually "gets" the fact that punishments should vary according to level of play

Indeed, which is one of the things that makes it scale so well. Felten's insistence on uniformity doesn't address that at all, really, and I think it exposes one of the big weaknesses of his argument: a Magic pro tour event doesn't just have stricter enforcement, for example. It also has a huge staff of officials, additional supplies and equipment, and all sorts of other stuff. From that point of view, insisting on having no "official" clock at the World Cup because your local neighborhood game doesn't have one just seems silly; when you get to a certain level you can and should introduce those things.

FIFA officiating was pretty bad, true, and I personally think that instant replay (sparingly used) could improve it a bit as well.

I don't personally care one way or another about replay. I would require referees to explain their calls on request (as a Magic judge I don't even have a choice -- I have to explain my rulings even if no-one asks me to), and look for a way to deal with fouls which occur but aren't immediately witnessed by the referee (golf, where you're expected to call an official on yourself if you do something wrong, is a good example; soccer could have a similar system and it would help with things like Thierry Henry's handball).

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#139

Post by bialecki » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 8:22 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #123

bialecki wrote: post #120

Get rid of ties and soccer is 10x better. Nothing more frustrating than watching a game for 90 minutes that ends in a tie. This is one of the big reasons playoff hockey is much better than during the regular season -- ever watched a game go into 5 OTs?

This is a pretty common American cultural expectation, but it would really hurt soccer to have matches go into extra time unnecessarily. The fatigue and injury rate is already too high--look at how many great players are sitting out this World Cup, for instance.

So injuries are the reason they don't play golden goal? If so, that's ridiculous. All sports deal with injuries and sometimes that means star players don't play.

What really bothers me is when teams "play for the tie" in certain situations and that's a viable option. Sports are not about playing not to lose, they're about playing to win. That's why the old Brazil teams and the current Argentina team are so fun to watch -- they're not worried about losing, they're playing to win. That's why the last US game was so entertaining -- they had to go for it in the second half so at least salvage a tie. Soccer should encourage more play like that.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#140

Post by mkramlich » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 8:36 PM UTC

Being a namespace/terminology nut, one of the things that bothers me the most is that they still haven't solved the name collision/ambiguity between 'soccer' and 'football'.