Earlier quoted context omitted.
Erdogan always had strong support from Turkish expatriates. I had always heard this explained as fundamentalists leaving Turkey because its secular laws were more restrictive (e.g. headscarfs are banned in universities[0] because of the strong separation of church and state) and Erdogan catering towards those fundamentalists. I don't know what changed in Turkey but it now seems that his support has grown not only out…
> I don't know whether he actually holds fundamentalist views himself... He does, actually. Google what he said about women.
After the coup, Turkey turns against America
131–140 of 298 posts
Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America
#132Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…
Karl Popper considered a government democratic if it could be replaced without violence, and while that's not exactly my definition, I think it's a good start - a bare minimum. A provision in the constitution for military coups doesn't excuse it. That just means the Turkish constitution is a bad one, that doesn't offer its citizens democracy. Handing over control to the people "once the situation is stable again" is…
Why do you think having an element of the military providing a check on democracy is obviously less legitimate? (Regardless of whether it's sensible.) If coup-leaders were formally separated from the military and wore black robes, would this make it better?
Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America
#133Turkey has turned over hundreds of American citizens who were caught trying to cross over to Syria. This is due to the criminal exchange agreement. America like always, behaves as if no rules, no agreements, no pacts, no UN decisions matter to them. They are the big guys above everything. They denied handing the person accused of treason to Turkey. The title should be.. "This time its Turkey: America deceives... agai…
Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America
#134Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…
I would like to comment how biased this view is. Yes the president is religious and cares about islam, his religion. - Turkey gdp has increased unparalleled in the whole of europe under Erdogan. - Erdogan has resettled 2.2 million syrian refugees in new cities (much more than whole of europe combined) with monthly food and money .. although 2.3 million are yet to settle. - He was elected with 60% votes and current st…
I'm saying he is objectively harming the ideals the Turkish Republic was founded on by Atatürk. I'm not saying this because I think those ideals would allow holding Turkey back for the West to exploit. I'm saying that because I genuinely think Atatürk was a great leader whose principles should be an example for all nations, not just Turkey.
I genuinely wish Germany was founded on Atatürk's principles instead of the mess we have (though I'm well aware of how much worse we could have it). I am genuinely upset by those ideals being betrayed by Erdogan and the Turkish people having chosen a path that stands against everything Turkey was founded on.
I am German, a lot of my classmates in school were Turkish immigrants. I even took a Turkish language course in elementary school (although I can barely remember anything beyond "bir iki üç"). I would have loved to see Turkey succeed as a modern state and become an example other nations in the Islamic world can look up to.
At this point I'm not even sure Turkey would be salvageable if Erdogan was gone. When I said this is a political tragedy, I mean it.
Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why would they (70%) not support him? - He increased their gdp - He reflects their view - He is merciful to the refugees (settled 2.2 million refugees) Why does he have to be pleasing to you? Why do you support hillary.. she killed millions.. Why do you support obama... yest 320 and today 124 (in idp school in syria) dead becasue of him Why do you support any damn politican in the west? All their pockets and morals a…
Is he merciful to the Kurds that helps fight IS or is he bombing them? Is he trying to force Germany to punish a comedian? Is he trying to reintroduce death penalty? Has he purged more than 2000 judges? Is it reasonable to think he has verified that all of them were bad judges during the two-three last days?
He said.. he will approve dealth penalty if the parliament approves it for the treasoners. Dont try to simplify things and deceive. Even many US states have death penalty.
Those judges names where retrived from the coup takers. Read somethings before making an opinion.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/18/military-coup-...
Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America
#136Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…
Karl Popper considered a government democratic if it could be replaced without violence, and while that's not exactly my definition, I think it's a good start - a bare minimum. A provision in the constitution for military coups doesn't excuse it. That just means the Turkish constitution is a bad one, that doesn't offer its citizens democracy. Handing over control to the people "once the situation is stable again" is…
Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America
#137Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
Karl Popper considered a government democratic if it could be replaced without violence, and while that's not exactly my definition, I think it's a good start - a bare minimum. A provision in the constitution for military coups doesn't excuse it. That just means the Turkish constitution is a bad one, that doesn't offer its citizens democracy. Handing over control to the people "once the situation is stable again" is…
Keep in mind those military coups have generally been relatively peaceful. Erdogan called the coup leaders a "junta" but that evokes the wrong images. The military is sworn to uphold the ideals of the Republic. The police is sworn to serve the government. The military has always tried to keep civilians out of the conflicts. As a German and knowing my country's history I think a violent escape hatch is always necessar…
I hope that this is ignorance. In '61 the prime minister and two ministers were executed. In '80 there were about 600 thousand arrests, thousands of torture cases and thousands of killings. The sufferers were mostly communists and leftist alike, and extreme-right.
I'm from Turkey and I'll tell you this: If we have all these problems, it's because Kemalist revolutions. I would certainly love to live in his dream country (except for the extra-nationalism part), but the revolutions were without tolerance and impatient. Most of the people sort of swallowed it, when muslim reformists got power, they had the army in front of them. Up until the mid-90s bloodshed solved everything. But since one and a half a decade, they have asserted themselves, they now think that they have the power. Erdogan and the like know how to speak to them. He shows them the carrot, all run. They believe they'll get back the old glorious days, except they don't know nothing about the old glory, thanks to century long assimilation and constructed history. Thus, being already ignorant, and in the spell of The New Glory, they believe what they are told on the TV. This ignorance has been created by the anachronism and traditionmaking of the post-WWI regime and sequent politics of nationalism, fed also by the coups, inventing an anatolian people that came from central asia, and that only remotely knows what happened between 10th and 20th century.
Now the people is at the hands of them to be manipulated. They have forgotten the reality of pre-40s, and they are searching an identity, that's honourable and clean, and they follow whomever that invents likeable things. Why are the potent are shouting to the US now? Because it pleases who thinks «The US runs the world, and there are 5 rich jewish families behind them,» i.e. ignorant conspiracy-theory lovers. Why are they this ignorant? Because the past was intentionally distorted by the nationalist and patriotist elite, the revolutionists, the coupists and the like.
Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America
#139Turkey is strategically valuable enough that I doubt much is going to change on a macro scale. Both sides will be cranky at each other for awhile, deals will be made, and everything will more or less go back to "normal." It's like how no one is willing to take care of the North Korea problem because leaving it alone is less of a headache than the alternative.
Turkey should be concerned about whether its strategic value still exists as such. We could probably live without them in the post-Soviet world. They are certainly extremely useful to have in the fold, but Erdoğan should take care not to assume they're indispensable.
Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I don't know whether he actually holds fundamentalist views himself... He does, actually. Google what he said about women.
You don't need to believe in religion to be a chauvinist, though.