After the coup, Turkey turns against America • Hacker News Board

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#91

Post by VLM » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:19 PM UTC

codeduck wrote: post #56

karpodiem wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'It would also like to take a bite out of Russia if Putin didn't have thousands of nukes. Let's hope they sway back to a secular, moderate nation.' Yeah, no. Russian weapon systems are far more advanced than the stuff Turkey has, and they outnumber Turkey. Their best equipment is some F-16 stuff that would be vastly overwhelmed by the number of MiG-29/31BM's that Russia has.

Russia has some of the best SAMs in the business. They don't need to use jets; Turkish F-16's wouldn't last long if Russia fired up their anti-aircraft systems and engaged.

The details that can be found on wikipedia are astounding.

Across the board Turkey has a lot of 80s era gear that's been lightly upgraded over the years and generally the Russians have about 10x the quantity of 2000s to 2010s era gear.

For example Turkey has 240 very theoretically active 80s era F-16 planes (how many are not deadlined / mission capable at this instant is a mystery, half maybe?) vs the Russian military theoretically has 1531 active 2000s and newer era SAM launchers. I mean obviously the Russians can not send every anti-aircraft unit they have to a skirmish with the Turks but its instructive that if they did, they'd have roughly 10 missile launchers fighting over the chance to fire on each target...

Its a similar situation WRT armor. Turkey has about 400 1980s era Leopard tanks. Russia only has 2500 2000s+ era main battle tanks.

Nobody is going to be rolling into the other side's capital any time soon.

Also worth keeping in mind the Russians have some recent-ish real combat experience but the Turks only have experience trying to genocide Kurdish civilians.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#92

Post by tremon » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:20 PM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #53

pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

It will probably go done in history as the EU's worst mistake – far worse than Greece or Brexit – not to have provided Turkey with a realistic path to membership. Around 1995-2005, Turkey was growing economically, a civil society was taking root and the people had an optimistic outlook friendly to the west. Erdogan was a mildly-religious fan of the EU and keen on economic progress in his first years. I'm not saying t…

The EU did not initiate the first schism between the EU and Turkey; it was Turkey's refusal to accept Cyprus (by that time a full EU member) as a sovereign state that caused all other negotiations to come to a halt.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#93

Post by jbmorgado » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:20 PM UTC

vixen99 wrote: post #86

jbmorgado wrote: post #81

Oh nice. The white European blaming is already starting. Let's forget that the majority of Turks elected a half-mad men that bases his discourse in the superiority of Islam and in the ethnical cleansing of Kurdistan. Let's forget that Erdogan supported the Islamic state. Let's forget that the Turks re-elected him after all this. Let's forget all these pro-Erdogan demonstrations going on in the streets of Ankara and I…

As declaimed by Royce Mann http://www.vox.com/2016/7/16/12184772/white-boy-privilege-ro...

Yes, it's my white male privilege that the majority of voters in Turkey elected a nutjob for his religious extremism and promises of violence against the kurdish part of the population.

You are right... blame my privilege for what's happening in Turkey.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#94

Post by fredThrind » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:21 PM UTC

emilsedgh wrote: post #33

pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

Its not just Erdogan. People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path. Although its very sad.

I've been reading this sort of thing a lot recently. Indeed, I think someone admiringly called Turkey's military "the world's best armed constitutional court". Yet, from what I was able to gather, even the Turkish opposition parties objected to the coup, and comments from ordinary Turks (and interestingly Greeks) were that Turkish coups were very bad for them. Many of us presume to have the right to decide the fates of other nations-it's a weird throwback to the imperialist mindset.

I wonder if we'd be as supportive of the US military taking over, in the interests of National Security if say, Trump, won the election and withdrew from Europe and East Asia? Or if Scotland voted to secede from the UK with the consent of the Commons, and the British Army decided that its duty was to protect the Union, and overthrow an elected government?

There is no excuse for human rights abuses, but if the majority of Turks believe they've been chafing under Kemalism for 90 years, and want to try something different, what right do we have to presume to dictate to them?

In any case, I fear this is all going to be moot. The commentariat is starting to make noises about the Kremlin supporting all manner of extremist candidates and positions in the West, including Brexit, Marine Le Pen, and Trump himself. Putin may have found the soft underbelly of Western democracy: money. I hope this isn't the case as I'll be as much a victim as anyone; but if it is, it will be the first bitter taste of the foreign meddling and sense of imperious entitlement we've been demonstrating for centuries.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#95

Post by jbmorgado » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:22 PM UTC

shabaan wrote: post #88

jbmorgado wrote: post #81

Oh nice. The white European blaming is already starting. Let's forget that the majority of Turks elected a half-mad men that bases his discourse in the superiority of Islam and in the ethnical cleansing of Kurdistan. Let's forget that Erdogan supported the Islamic state. Let's forget that the Turks re-elected him after all this. Let's forget all these pro-Erdogan demonstrations going on in the streets of Ankara and I…

Nice too.. Let's go into each of the past instances of history and make it excuse to blame TURKEY today Lets forget how many turkish lives did kurdish terrorist attacks claimed before we claim "ethnic cleansing" for fighting men in uniform Lets forget Erdogan returned US citizens trying to cross to syria and the airbase from where 95% airstrikes happen Lets rant on capital punishment for treason-ers but claim to the…

I told you facts, you told me conspiration theories.

Perhaps you don't understand the difference.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#96

Post by explorigin » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:23 PM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #85

eternalban wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think he staged the failed coup himself Indeed. It is is pretty irrational for a grandee to "fake a coup" if the said grandee is not in 100% control of military-spook set. (And if 100%, it makes no sense, since you already have full control.) > He spread the narrative that the coup was staged not to defend Atatürk's principles but by a religious sect his ruling party fell out with. http://www.militarytimes.…

I think I'd want to see some evidence rather than speculation before I believed that.

Evidence in such matters is rare, but this scenario was predicted/accepted by some that study foreign policy:

https://www.corbettreport.com/interview-1193-sibel-edmonds-d... http://www.williamengdahl.com/englishNEO18July2016.php

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#97

Post by unethical_ban » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:24 PM UTC

shabaan wrote: post #80

emilsedgh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not just Erdogan. People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path. Although its very sad.

Why would they (70%) not support him? - He increased their gdp - He reflects their view - He is merciful to the refugees (settled 2.2 million refugees) Why does he have to be pleasing to you? Why do you support hillary.. she killed millions.. Why do you support obama... yest 320 and today 124 (in idp school in syria) dead becasue of him Why do you support any damn politican in the west? All their pockets and morals a…

Do you want the Americans to fight the terrorists in Syria, or no? War is not without collateral damage. Our country gets criticized for not doing enough when we try to stay out of it, or for "murder" when we take violent action and someone innocent gets hurt.

Erdogan jails journalists who don't like him, and has committed a purge of police, judges and teachers who he disagrees with.

If President Obama dissolved police departments, school districts and judgeships on a wide scale, there would be mass protests or a civil war. We expect freedom of speech and freedom of thought, unlike many in Turkey, it seems.

edit: I'd like to leave this here to show what he has done since the "coup". https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/4tq4sd/all_turki...

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#98

Post by finid » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:24 PM UTC

pluma wrote: post #51

emilsedgh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not just Erdogan. People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path. Although its very sad.

Erdogan always had strong support from Turkish expatriates. I had always heard this explained as fundamentalists leaving Turkey because its secular laws were more restrictive (e.g. headscarfs are banned in universities[0] because of the strong separation of church and state) and Erdogan catering towards those fundamentalists. I don't know what changed in Turkey but it now seems that his support has grown not only out…

> I don't know whether he actually holds fundamentalist views himself...

He does, actually. Google what he said about women.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#99

Post by afsina » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:24 PM UTC

vaadu wrote: post #14

What coup? This is looking more like the entire event was staged as a pretext for a complete takeover, similar to the Reichstag fire of 1930s Germany.

Huh. It seemed hell of a (failed) coup to me. Just because outcome favored the government (Duh! This is a failed coup, what do you expect?) it does not mean they convinced soldiers to kill tens of people. Too much confirmation bias?

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#100

Post by guard-of-terra » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:25 PM UTC

emilsedgh wrote: post #55

guard-of-terra wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path. A doubt all of them are. Just as with Brexit, popular opinion might be divided.

Of course not all. But he seems to have the democratic support. As most people prefer it.

Having democratic support doesn't entitle him with right to dismantle the very system that let him be elected, and in my uneducated opinion that's what he does.

Democracy is playing by the rules, not changing these rules each few years as you see fit, even while quoting "popular support" (but not holding any referendums, definitely).