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The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

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Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#131

Post by Amorymeltzer »

cloudjacker wrote: post #79
two2two wrote: post #29

TSA is the number one reason why I don't fly and drive instead. From my POV most of the world's industries have progressed positively, but not air travel. I took a train a couple of years ago and it was a beautiful example of old merging with new. Walking through an antique of a train station, iPhone in hand, with my digital ticket ready to board; so easy and pleasant. At that point I realized that air travel is by f…

I arrive at the airport in a Lyft. I walk up to the security checkpoint checkpoint, where I show the agent my phone. They see my boarding pass with the green checkmark and send me to the empty TSA Pre line. I walk through the metal detector with no adjustments to my attire. I am at the gate in 5 minutes. I like how trains basically let you show up last minute, and a 3 hour train ride actually means a 3 hour train rid…

>I arrive at the airport in a Lyft.

That costs money. Many people take the train or a shuttle or lean on a friend.

>I walk up to the security checkpoint checkpoint, where I show the agent my phone. They see my boarding pass with the green checkmark and send me to the empty TSA Pre line. I walk through the metal detector with no adjustments to my attire.

You paid for that TSA PreCheck privilege which, while not in the grand scheme a large amount, is technically something.

It's also beside the point. TSA PreCheck is the result of a careful plan:

1. Make everyone undergo an intrusive, invasive, and time-consuming process that provides little to no additional security.

2. Allow people to pay for the privilege of not going through that procedure.

3. Profit!

I don't do PreCheck because buying your rights is not something we should be able or have to do. It's a perversion that leaves us happy to pay for something that was commonplace until 9/10/01.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#132

Post by rconti »

saryant wrote: post #33
pmontra wrote: post #27

> Airports should kick out the TSA I'm not American and haven't been there for a long time so forgive my ignorance. TSA is an agency of DHS so I believed that its presence in airports was mandated by the government. Can airports really replace it with anybody they like? If this is the case, why they didn't do it before? Only because TSA is for free and airports have to pay private security companies?

Airports can replace the TSA with private contracts. SFO farmed security out to a company called Covenant. They still have to follow TSA policies and aren't necessarily an improvement from a passenger standpoint. I.e., you're still getting yelled at by otherwise-unemployable nitwits on a power trip.

Oh really? That's depressing. I fly out of SFO all the time, and it's the only airport where I've had to wait in security for more than about 15 minutes.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#133

Post by Dagwoodie »

pgrote wrote: post #101

I have long looked for an answer outside of security theater as to why the ban on liquids continues. If anyone has an answer, I'd appreciate hearing it. If you go through a screening line and a liquid is found, the liquid is not tested. It is not handled carefully. It is not thoroughly inspected. It is tossed in the closest garbage can. If the liquid really did pose a danger, wouldn't it be handled more carefully?

Not defending the rule at all, and I'm no chemist, but I always assumed it was because someone could bring on base chemicals in various containers and mix them into a finished and dangerous concoction on the plane... and they determined that < 3oz per container was enough mitigation?

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#134

Post by sowbug »

navait wrote: post #67
sowbug wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's hard to propose a workable alternative How about recognizing that 9/11 was a troll, and we fell for it? The attackers hated the U.S.'s idea of freedom, but they were too powerless to take away our freedom. So they figured out a clever way to make us take away our own freedom ourselves. And yep, we did exactly that. We honor U.S. military who defend our freedom with their lives. They value freedom more than per…

> How about recognizing that 9/11 was a troll, and we fell for it? The attackers hated the U.S.'s idea of freedom, but they were too powerless to take away our freedom. So they figured out a clever way to make us take away our own freedom ourselves. And yep, we did exactly that. They didn't attack us because they "hate our freedom". Sure, they don't like western lifestyles or values, but that's not the primary reason…

That's good feedback. I don't understand the dynamics of the Middle East well enough, and as a fallback, it's easier to think in us-vs.-them dichotomies.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#135

Post by charlesz »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #98
pc86 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the poster specifically mentioned a jet but GA in general is absolutely within reach. With a license it costs maybe $150/hr to fly a Cessna 172 (and you're usually only billed for time the engine's actually running).

How much does it cost to get a license? Can a Cessna 172 take me and my wife and child across the country to New York? Is parking a plane there free? "Especially as a hobby" has nothing to do with what we're talking about here. Horseback riding is also affordable as a hobby, but nobody's bringing it up in a thread about the TSA because it has just as much relevance.

It can range anywhere from $6,000 to $15,000 (at the extremely high end) to get your PPL. Ramp fees vary.. Usually free if you buy 10 gallons of gas while you're there, otherwise $5-$15 per day.

Can a Cessna 172 get you to New York? Sure, if you have the time. It'll be a long and monotonous flight though.

Now, with all of that said, your point still stands. GA flying is a hobby and almost always more expensive than hopping on an airline.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#136

Post by dragontamer »

Amorymeltzer wrote: post #131
cloudjacker wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I arrive at the airport in a Lyft. I walk up to the security checkpoint checkpoint, where I show the agent my phone. They see my boarding pass with the green checkmark and send me to the empty TSA Pre line. I walk through the metal detector with no adjustments to my attire. I am at the gate in 5 minutes. I like how trains basically let you show up last minute, and a 3 hour train ride actually means a 3 hour train rid…

>I arrive at the airport in a Lyft. That costs money. Many people take the train or a shuttle or lean on a friend. >I walk up to the security checkpoint checkpoint, where I show the agent my phone. They see my boarding pass with the green checkmark and send me to the empty TSA Pre line. I walk through the metal detector with no adjustments to my attire. You paid for that TSA PreCheck privilege which, while not in the…

> 3. Profit!

The Department of Homeland Security (of which the TSA is a part of) has a budget and its priorities are set in Congress. There is no "profit" motive here.

The US is throwing money at this problem, and money that only creates inconveniences for us.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#137

Post by michaelkeenan »

pgrote wrote: post #101

I have long looked for an answer outside of security theater as to why the ban on liquids continues. If anyone has an answer, I'd appreciate hearing it. If you go through a screening line and a liquid is found, the liquid is not tested. It is not handled carefully. It is not thoroughly inspected. It is tossed in the closest garbage can. If the liquid really did pose a danger, wouldn't it be handled more carefully?

I think the (ostensible) reason is similar to this, from the link:

> As security expert Bruce Schneier likes to note, such screenings don't have to be perfect; they just have to be good enough to make terrorists change their plans: "No terrorist is going to base his plot on getting a gun through airport security if there's a decent chance of getting caught, because the consequences of getting caught are too great."

That is, the act of confiscating the liquids almost ensures that the liquids are already harmless. But if they didn't confiscate the liquid, it (supposedly) might not be harmless. It's a bit like Newcomb's Paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcomb%27s_paradox

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#138

Post by 0xfeba »

rhino369 wrote: post #4

It's easy to say that TSA sucks (it does), but it's hard to propose a workable alternative. Well alternative 1, stop making us take off our shoes and taking out our laptops, its clear from pre-check that it's not really necessary. You need some security. That was clear before 9-11. Airports had security and it was pretty similar to how TSA does it right now. You put your bags on an Xray machine, show your ID, and wal…

The shoe bomb attempt, the liquid attempt, underwear attempt, all happened AFTER the TSA checkpoint, in the aircraft. All the new measures were applied as a reaction--after the fact.

The TSA didn't prevent those terrorist attacks--the people on the plain, luck/ineptitude did.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#139

Post by lisper »

zeemonkee3 wrote: post #34
lisper wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's hard to propose a workable alternative No, actually, it's really easy. > You need some security. That was clear before 9-11. No, it was not clear then, and it is not clear now. There are two salient facts: 1. When tested, the TSA misses 90% or so of the weapons people try to smuggle past them 2. Notwithstanding #1, there have been zero successful terrorist attack on aircraft in the U.S. since 9-11. So it is fa…

> 2. Notwithstanding #1, there have been zero successful terrorist attack on aircraft in the U.S. since 9-11. How much is due to the TSA, as opposed to civilian and military intelligence work at home and abroad and simple measures such as having air marshals and preventing any access to the cockpit during flight?

I think it's pretty clear that it's because there are actually very few terrorists in most of the world, and certainly very few of them in the U.S. The fact of the matter is that a terrorist attack is trivial to conduct, especially if you're willing to die for the cause. There are just a ridiculous number of soft targets out there. It's simply not possible to secure them all. The only reasonable explanation (AFAICT) for why NYC doesn't look like Baghdad, with car bombs going off on a regular basis, is that the number of actual terrorists in the U.S. is indistinguishable from zero.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#140

Post by Amorymeltzer »

dragontamer wrote: post #129
sosborn wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My $100 Global Entry (includes TSA Pre) fee is my hedge against the American public's apathy towards the TSA. I don't blame you for paying that fee, but doesn't that just feed the monster?

Starving the monster doesn't work. Besides, "anti-TSA" is painting with too broad a brush. Air Marshals are part of the TSA, as are a myriad of other useful agencies. Its really just the pre-screen and invasive checks that need to stop. I think we all can agree that a dedicated force of Air Marshals is a good idea, right? As is the "intelligence" unit who is looking for active threats vs Airports.

It's only been since 2005 when the TSA was reorganized under the TSA as part of the Department of Homeland Security. Before that, the Air Marshals were part of Immigration and Customs, if I'm not mistaken.
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