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Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#131

Post by kelukelugames »

fgandiya wrote: post #87

It's times like these when I think to myself why I'm bothering to enter this field? I mean, I really wanna go into the tech feel to make awesome stuff, but hearing how hard it is for people who look like me (black African college student in the mid west) just gets me down. Then again, software engineering has only been a thing for about 40-50 odd years and is young as compared to other professions, so I guess things…

You will be fine. People are much more collaborative and supportive in real life than they are on online forums.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#132

Post by zephharben »

redthrowaway wrote: post #82
zephharben wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies don't bear any moral responsibilities - people do Hiring managers and executives should use all of the tools at their disposal in the context of recruitment and hiring - including moral and ethical judgement. Setting moral responsibilities aside - if you want to hire talented, passionate engineers like me, you will get serious about building teams with people from diverse backgrounds.

>if you want to hire talented, passionate engineers like me, you will get serious about building teams with people from diverse backgrounds. There's a pretty major leap in logic, there. What does diversity have to do with talented, passionate engineering teams? Companies like Honda and Toyota have some of the least diverse engineering teams on the planet, and yet they have a well-earned reputation for engineering exc…

I'll rephrase that - if you want to hire ME, you need to take this stuff seriously.

I wasn't delving into the merits of diversity - I believe in it; I'm seeing it put to the test every day at my company, and I like what I see.

> it doesn't follow that maximizing diversity is therefor an imperative for companies that want to have world-class teams.

Diversity isn't about addition/subtraction, nor is it calculus; it's not even sociology, macroeconomics, or socioeconomics.

Diversity is about adaptive systems.

> In fact diversity seems to be orthogonal to competence.

I'll concede this point, but only with the substitution of "productivity" for "competence". Homogenous teams can outperform diverse teams, IN THE SHORT TERM.

Diversity may lead directly to inefficiency and conflict. In the short term, these are painful inhibitors to productivity.

In the long term, diversity of backgrounds, capabilities and perspectives - properly aligned - can be a huge asset.

If you are building a new company, and you want to beat the world, you'd be foolish to hire a bunch of people who think about things the same way that you do.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#133

Post by is_it_worth_it_ »

homogeneous wrote: post #115
is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Whatever role genetics play in IQ are most certainly not manifested in the concentration of melanin in one's skin or the coarseness of one's hair or the color of one's eyes or the size of one's nose or any of the other crude heuristics we use to group people up as "races"." You are making the case that intraracial facial structures all resemble each other, but internally how people are connected (brain structure) do…

> You are making the case that intraracial facial structures all resemble each other No, my point is precisely the opposite. I'm making the case that facial structures are a crude approximation for genetic classification because it's not true that all "black" people have a dark skin complexion, not all "black" people have thick kinky hair, there is genetic diversity within the "black" community because the definition…

With all due respect, for the purpose of what we are arguing here, this pisses me off. Why do I even waste my time trying to make an argument when you spew this.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#134

Post by is_it_worth_it_ »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #101
is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

Sorry to further dogpile on your comment, but I just realised what it is that bothers me with discussions of IQ and race: it's that IQ is a proxy. It's a stand-in for something we can't directly observe and therefore cannot measure, or even fully define. Which means, it's _very_ difficult to see how "IQ" itself would be an inherited trait, seeing as it's not a trait at all. It's not even a thing at all. All that IQ i…

Will no one actually argue the topic at hand? Are you really taking time out of your day to post this!? Iq is a proxy for intelligence, it's not perfect, but it is a massive predictor for success in life. The largest predictor in fact. But even if that wasn't the case, you know I'm referring to intelligence. So why are you posting this? Is this really the most intelligent thing you can think of?

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#135

Post by is_it_worth_it_ »

tptacek wrote: post #130
is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #13

Is nobody willing to acknowledge the reality of genetically inherited IQ? It's like all of our political system is designed around subverting this reality. I suppose society that openly accepts this reality would lead to instability? Is that why we hide the truth, that in fact, yes your genetics do matter? Why do we know about how evolution works, but turn a blind eye to the fact that different pools of genetics have…

In case it's worth it to you, either when you return with your new account after this one is inevitably blowtorched off the site, or on next week's spelling test, the word you're looking for is "tenet" (a principle or belief), not "tenant" (a rental resident). Everyone else reading this can find the flag button quickly by clicking on the timestamp next to the name on the comment.

Fair enough, but do you have an argument against what I am saying?

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#136

Post by tptacek »

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #135
tptacek wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case it's worth it to you, either when you return with your new account after this one is inevitably blowtorched off the site, or on next week's spelling test, the word you're looking for is "tenet" (a principle or belief), not "tenant" (a rental resident). Everyone else reading this can find the flag button quickly by clicking on the timestamp next to the name on the comment.

Fair enough, but do you have an argument against what I am saying?

Yes. Please stop trolling HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11185269

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11083482

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#137

Post by tptacek »

whitegrape wrote: post #124
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention, African Americans play a lot of basketball because Americans in general play (or view) a lot of basketball. In Europe, say, Africans play a lot of football. But there's also just as many whites who do- so are African Americans only endowed with the kind of genetics that help them play good basketball? Or are Africans in general endowed with good _basketball_ genetics, but not good _football_ genetics?…

Surprise, there are actually more diverse sets of black people than "African", each with their own biological diversity. African-Americans (that is, blacks in America who can trace their ancestors to the southern slaves) overwhelming come from a specific part of Africa, and those Africans are quite different from Africans elsewhere on the continent. You even have race wars among different ethnic groups of Africans! (…

Rwanda is a lovely example: an "ethnic conflict" created by Belgian colonialism.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#138

Post by is_it_worth_it_ »

tptacek wrote: post #136
is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, but do you have an argument against what I am saying?

Yes. Please stop trolling HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11185269 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11083482

I'm not a troll, I believe this. I'm actually baffled that people can't see how obvious it is. I'm highly credentialed/successful in the tech industry. In the case that I have no intelligence what so ever, explain this comment you have linked. To me, he's pointing out some obscure fact, that not all Africans look the same. Fine, but 95%+ do, can we argue about the general concept? Or do I have to be confined to spelling and grammar mistake arguments? Along with nitpicking? Personal insults?

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#139

Post by aikah »

kelukelugames wrote: post #127

"Reverse racism" is not a real thing. I swear people invent ways to feel persecuted

> "Reverse racism" is not a real thing. I swear people invent ways to feel persecuted

Reverse racism is certainly a real thing. Bigotry against white people is certainly a real thing. Go spend 5 minutes on salon.com, come back and tell me with a straight face that these people don't flirt with racism against white people.

As a black person, this kind of ideology isn't helping me. It's only helping pundits selling outrage.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#140

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

is_it_worth_it_ wrote: post #134
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to further dogpile on your comment, but I just realised what it is that bothers me with discussions of IQ and race: it's that IQ is a proxy. It's a stand-in for something we can't directly observe and therefore cannot measure, or even fully define. Which means, it's _very_ difficult to see how "IQ" itself would be an inherited trait, seeing as it's not a trait at all. It's not even a thing at all. All that IQ i…

Will no one actually argue the topic at hand? Are you really taking time out of your day to post this!? Iq is a proxy for intelligence, it's not perfect, but it is a massive predictor for success in life. The largest predictor in fact. But even if that wasn't the case, you know I'm referring to intelligence. So why are you posting this? Is this really the most intelligent thing you can think of?

I'm arguing the point, yes. I'm saying that IQ is an arbitrary measure and who knows what it's measuring. Others have pointed out that race is also an arbitrary category and that skin colour is not necessarily the same thing as having the same genetics.

So basically we have an arbitrary measure correlated with another arbitrary measure. We don't have much to draw firm conclusions on.

And that agrees with the other thing you bring up:

>> "Iq .. is a massive predictor for success in life."

That may just as well be an outcome of racial bias against non-whites in the US. In which case, IQ would be a pretty accurate measure of racial bias, but not of intelligence.

You're asking "so why do blacks score lower in IQ tests?". I'm answering: who knows why. The fact that they do means the test is probably broken, not that they're less intelligent for real.

Basically, any test result that just so happens to agree with some widely held societal belief should set the bias alarm off.

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