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What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

carryology.com

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Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#131

Post by librvf »

Steko wrote: post #84
Yetanfou wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is what you get when a normal, level-headed discussion on a subject is not allowed. Merely breaching the subject in public invites accusations of racism, xenophobia and discrimination. That is not helpful as it is clear that the problem does exist. That problem needs to be solved, not ignored or hidden under a false blanket of understanding. A crime is a crime, no matter whether the perpetrator is a native-born…

'Rape town!' is not normal level headed discussion on the subject. If you want serious debate I'd suggest you can start by not defending the comment that's clearly overstepped the boundary on what constitutes serious debate.

The poster who originally wrote those words, wrote them in context of a much larger post. (That phrase was 0.8% of the entire posts by word count). That post was written in response to a propaganda article [0] that got 130+ upvotes. You can't expect a response to propaganda to not include at least a little rhetoric.

And as far as the quality of discussion, the point it really went downhill was when this responder seized on that one small sentence (0.8% of the post!) and responded with pure empty rhetoric: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10225065

> If you want serious debate I'd suggest you can start by not defending the comment that's clearly overstepped the boundary on what constitutes serious debate.

No. If you want serious debate, don't defend a comment that skimmed a thoughtful contribution to cherry-pick the most potentially objectionable bit of rhetoric and then posture off an out-of-context quote of it. And, don't repeat that same mistake.

[0] http://www.carryology.com/bags/whats-in-my-bag-what-refugees...

TeamCarryology: @Brad, I think you've missed the point entirely. Through this piece, and by using 'carry'as a thread, we're able to bring this 'serious' and dire crisis to the attention of our 130K + readers, in the hope that they may take interest in these people and visit the International Rescue Committee to learn more.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#132

Post by iaskwhy »

bordercases wrote: post #33
Zirro wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You speak as if Europe has a choice in accepting refugees. I believe the last few weeks in particular show that this choice does not exist. They will come, and we will have to do the best we can out of the situation.

They do! Germany, the UK and the Scandinavian nations are the only European countries (that I was aware of circa within the week) to be actively accepting Syrian refugees - every other country in between them AND the Mediterranean have had negative responses to incoming refugees and I would expect deportation. If refugees were just coming in for safety's sake, there are plenty of other Islamic countries that would be…

> "Germany, the UK and the Scandinavian nations are the only European countries (that I was aware of circa within the week) to be actively accepting Syrian refugees"

You might need to inform yourself a bit better as most European countries have been accepting Syrian refugees[0]. Germany is now leading the effort to give documents to the new arrivals but in the upcoming weeks a part of them will be sent to different locations around Europe. Pretty much all countries' newspapers have been reporting this (in regards to its numbers and locations).

[0] http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#133

Post by bordercases »

socket0 wrote: post #121
bordercases wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> taxes I was hoping that it wouldn't come down to that sort of thing - exploiting the refugees as a taxable resource. Because it seems kind of two-faced, to have Janus wear compassion/universalism on one side and to have taxing/demographic sustainability on the other side. Have some more goddamn kids.

We're all someone's cattle in some greater scheme. The community funds education and healthcare, not because we're nice people, but because there's a net benefit to having a healthy and educated workforce. It's cynical and sad, but also realistic. > Have some more goddamn kids. Volunteers for the bordercases EU breeding programme eagerly awaited! :)

> kids

A demographic inverse pyramid occurs when parents decide to breed below replacement rate. I intend to have two or more children, preferably around four children, as a way of ensuring that my values exist more strongly over the coming decades. It's a form of game theoretic cooperation with my culture in what resembles a Commons problem.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#134

Post by tremon »

Peter_K2 wrote: post #129
tremon wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There would not have been any refugees if some of the Arab states (e.g. Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt) would have intervened in Syria either. It's not just "the west": no country made a serious effort to prevent the escalation there. You could argue that any attempt at a serious effort was thwarted at the UN level by the apathetic attitude of Russia and China, but in that case your complaint against Americans and white…

God! You are ignorant! Saudi Arabia and Quatar have been financing the war in Syria by sending arms and recruiting mindless criminals around the world to fight the "bad" Assad. 18.000 Syrian childen in Turkish camps are missing because their organs were harvested and sold to "customers". And, of course, their supportive partners (US and Israel) have been helping out a lot. But i guess it's Turkey/Saudi Arabia/Quatar…

"Intervening" is not the same as "financing". My point still stands.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#135

Post by guard-of-terra »

toyg wrote: post #56
bordercases wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> taxes I was hoping that it wouldn't come down to that sort of thing - exploiting the refugees as a taxable resource. Because it seems kind of two-faced, to have Janus wear compassion/universalism on one side and to have taxing/demographic sustainability on the other side. Have some more goddamn kids.

Truth is, most migrants end up benefiting their new country despite a general hostility towards them. It's always been like that, even in XIX century US. So there is no hypocrisy really: we are not letting them in "because they help with taxes", that's a secondary side-effect that we are forced to emphasize in modern debate only because we have to fight naturally-xenophobic elements in our societies.

Can we put (dubious in my opinion) benefits from migrants against girls (including teenage and children) raped by said migrants and weight it up? How much money does one child rape cost?

https://majorityrights.com/weblog/comments/muslim_rape_wave_... from another thread.

And this is not unique, in the UK they busted like a dozen of underage brothels any of which had dozens of underage girls abducted, beaten and made prostitute. Brothels of course run by muslim immigrants.

How much benefits does that cost?

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#136

Post by guard-of-terra »

tobr wrote: post #59
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unfortunately the documented behaviour of the last waves of immigrants on their way to Germany does little to appease these fears

Please stop the FUD. It's true that immigrants are over-represented in crime statistics, but that is both as victims and perpetrators, and it must be understood in the light of their socioeconomic status. Regardless, >99% of the people who are coming to Europe right now are not future rapists.

The problem is, 1% of rapists is an awfully high number considering the severity of problem that is rape.

"If a society is not able to reduce this "<1%" to at least strict 0,001% by filtering and background checks, it should probably reject the remaining 99% too. This isn't fair to the rest of immigrants but otherwise it will not be fair to your own citizens.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#137

Post by guard-of-terra »

bordercases wrote: post #133
socket0 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're all someone's cattle in some greater scheme. The community funds education and healthcare, not because we're nice people, but because there's a net benefit to having a healthy and educated workforce. It's cynical and sad, but also realistic. > Have some more goddamn kids. Volunteers for the bordercases EU breeding programme eagerly awaited! :)

> kids A demographic inverse pyramid occurs when parents decide to breed below replacement rate. I intend to have two or more children, preferably around four children, as a way of ensuring that my values exist more strongly over the coming decades. It's a form of game theoretic cooperation with my culture in what resembles a Commons problem.

I would say we had a population bubble. "Inverse pyramid" is a fallout from bubble.

It happened that many people were born and raised, setting all-time population records, and trying to keep this number increase forever and forever is unviable. One may argue that there's still a lot of land for people to live in, but truth is people skip villages and small towns for capitals because they're not needed where they used to live. There's land, but there's no demand.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#138

Post by guard-of-terra »

einrealist wrote: post #45
bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

At this stage, I expect to happen the following: They will adapt. We will adapt. There will be lots of problems. There will be many opportunities and there will be good.

What you're saying, you don't have any control over the situation but you hope that it'll end well.

Кривая вывезет.

It doesn't always turn out right, you know? Holocaust happened as an example where situation has never fixed itself. See also Kosovo, previously populated by Serbs, then they let muslim move in, muslim then drive out serbs by fear and intimidation, take over the region just for themself, and THEN seek refuge as crazy because they don't want to live in the kind of country they created.

I can imagine it happen to some European regions.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#139

Post by pron »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #127
pron wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I responded to your statement that "the best solution to this is of course ending the welfare state", and said that's been tried (in late 19th-century America) and wasn't too great for immigrants. In fact, the American welfare state (or at least regulation) started as a response to what happened then. I used "most people prefer" when it comes to valuing free-market vs. regulation, that are two competing controversial…

Immigration plus no welfare state was vastly better than the alternative of starving in ireland. It's also vastly better than being beheaded by ISIS or being paid 200rs/day in India. But again, those folks don't seem to count. I'm also confused by the collective responsibility you seem to allude to. How do you determine which groups this responsibility adheres to? Can "the Jews" rather than "Europe" also be collectiv…

> But again, those folks don't seem to count.

How do you come up with that stuff? Who said that?

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#140

Post by emp_zealoth »

iaskwhy wrote: post #123
funkyy wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On a side-note, how can someone say something is unaddressed with the amount of information available on the internet? People just need to read a bit when in doubt and stop with false (and dangerous) assumptions. I meant by mainstream media. They ignore majority of issues and keep misinforming people dependent on old age media. >This is false and it's easy to confirm... 1) Some camps are actually good suited, its e…

There is a huge difference between seeing an informed documentary and seeing an out of context video. For example, it's quite possible these people were rejecting food and water because they were tired of being beaten and hold up by the Hungarian police/military, as seen in lots of other videos. One should see these videos with an open mind and not with a preconceived idea because that's how it got us to be surprised…

And how exactly do you suggest to tell which is an informed documentary and which is out of context?
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