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Safari is the new IE

nolanlawson.com

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Re: Safari is the new IE

#121

Post by at-fates-hands »

mhomde wrote: post #113
NietTim wrote: post #38

Nolan, I'm not familiar with what you do or have done, but have you ever tried to make a website back in the day? Ever tried to support IE6? 7? 8? IE literally broke the web. CSS rules which worked in every browser ever wouldn't work in IE. Entire webpages weren't formatting correctly, having to spend hours, days, on workarounds. Comparing Safari to IE is just wrong. Safari doesn't break the web, it 'just' lacks supp…

Yes, but before that IE fixed the web! :) Remember CSS on Netscape? IE4 was actually a beacon back in its day. Everything is cyclical: Lean - Average - Bloated - Lean - Average - Bloated

Are we currently in the bloated stage?

- Chrome sucks up RAM like Photoshop.

- Firefox Dev Edition is broken or slow every other build

- IE is "ok"but their dev tools are incredibly sluggish and useless.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#122

Post by josephlord »

pjc50 wrote: post #93

The difference between IE and (iOS) Safari is that Microsoft got fined for bundling IE ( http://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/micros... ) while Apple get away with not only bundling a browser but banning competing implementations on their platform.

At the time Windows had more than 95% (pulling percentage out of thin air but I think it is realistic) of the desktop operating system market. Apple is less than half of the mobile market. This doesn't mean I agree with the limitations but it is certainly legally relevant to whether they are "get away" with doing it.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#123

Post by framp »

Today news: browsers sucks.

The real thing I'm worried about is that no one is working on an open app ecosystem. The only thing we have are browsers - which are horribly inefficient and have huge discrepancies with one another. We're so terribly behind.

Really, Safari's problems are just a symptom. The real problem is browser existence.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#124

Post by shkkmo »

benjamindc wrote: post #16

Safari isn't "lagging behind other browsers", it's just implementing different things. In fact, Safari is still the best browser when it comes to everything UI-related (animations, visual effects, …). You might disagree with Apple's priorities, but it doesn't mean other browsers are "better" per se, they're just different. Safari's release cycle, however, is stupid per se.

> Safari isn't "lagging behind other browsers", it's just implementing different things.

Which is exactly what makes safari the new IE. Going it's own way and not even bothering to try to implement the new standards used in other browsers.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#125

Post by dredmorbius »

smrtinsert wrote: post #48
spaar wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The iOS version of Chrome doesn't use Chrome's rendering and JavaScript engines though, per the App Store rules it has to use WebKit [0]. So, any other browser app on iOS would have the same problems as mobile Safari. [0] http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/06/28/chrome-ios (linked by the article btw)

That's amazing. Thanks for reminding me how much contempt they have for choice.

Not quite my area of expertise, but I believe that browsers on Android also tend to use the core Android browser components though they can dress them up slightly differently.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#126

Post by Cshelton »

zecho wrote: post #118
Cshelton wrote: post #26

As a user, I love Safari. The hand off between my macbook and iphone is amazing, it feels smoother than other browsers. As a developer, I would say they are just doing a few things differently. I think the web API and DOM/css should have a standard set that every browser has to implement in the same way. It's actually way way better than it used to be. However, I'm fine with additional api features as targeting brows…

Handoff actually works for you? You're one in a million.

Yeah I've never had any issues with it. It also works when I'm using Chrome on my macbook. Like, a safari tab will show up on Chrome, it's pretty sweet.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#127

Post by bzbarsky »

verbin217 wrote: post #40
realityking wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While web assembly may give us performance, it doesn't give us access to new platform API. Web assembly can in no way replace Service Worker, IndexedDB or Web Manifests. It also won't help with Web Components unless you're aming for a Web where we just draw on a big canvas.

I want a web where we just draw on a big canvas. That's a pretty simple API for implementers to get right. Then we could move the scene graph (DOM) and it's rendering engine entirely into the application language where it could be more readily hot-fixed. It'd be like PDFJS but for your whole fucking web browser.

Note that PDFJS still creates a DOM, in order to support little things like selection, accessibility, etc.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#128

Post by criswell »

kalleboo wrote: post #111
criswell wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely agreed. They want the web to lose.

If Apple really wanted to make Web Apps feel like a second class citizen, they wouldn't be adding Force Touch, custom AirPlay control support and Picture In Picture support to the upcoming version of Safari. Those are deep, native app level features that aren't even Web standards yet. I assume Apple is underinvesting in safari simply because they have bigger fish to fry, and they are notoriously understaffed with com…

They're adding APIs that only benefit people using their hardware. Unless they open source AirPlay and whatever else they need to do for Force Touch I'm failing to see why I should be excited by that.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#129

Post by outsidetheparty »

>I heard them referred to cagily as “a company in California” or “a certain fruit company.”

Oh, come on. Nobody does this. Why would anybody do this?

Hyperbole for effect is all well and good -- and the clickbait title makes it quite clear that that's what we're wading into here -- but this borders on self-parody, like saying MICRO$OFT or chanting "don't be evil!" or "WWSJD" it makes you look like a partisan rather than someone with a valid point to make.

Safari does lack IndexedDB, and their 'powersaver plugin' thing has caused me headaches. Firefox is the most likely to go unresponsive under CPU load, IME, and a nasty growing habit of pushing new monetization strategies into their toolbar. Chrome has poor performance, broken video event handling, and is the one that seems most likely to break my app every time they push an update. IE8-11 have various issues with animation and SVG, and most irritatingly there are four versions of it still in active use, each with their own quirks. Edge is, I'll guiltily admit, not really on my radar yet, but I'm sure it'll have its advantages and disadvantages as well.

None of them are the new IE. Even IE isn't the new IE. There's never going to be another IE6 for the web -- we've all, developers and customers alike, learned the lesson about proprietary extensions and platform lock-in.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#130

Post by benburton »

spaar wrote: post #15
sigzero wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I should delete my Google Chrome app then? Granted it doesn't take the default for things but I can still use it.

The iOS version of Chrome doesn't use Chrome's rendering and JavaScript engines though, per the App Store rules it has to use WebKit [0]. So, any other browser app on iOS would have the same problems as mobile Safari. [0] http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/06/28/chrome-ios (linked by the article btw)

Sounds like United States v. Microsoft Corp.[1] all over again.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....

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