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Good Poker Players Aren't Lucky

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Re: Good Poker Players Aren't Lucky

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EV = "Earned Value"? Could you outline the process or point to a place to read up on it WRT poker?

@General is right. Here's a great link about what this process generally involves and why you would do it: http://www.pokerology.com/lessons/calculating-expected-value...

Thanks, I know expected values, thoughts this was a game-theoretic analysis adding in potential winnings as a weighting or some such.

Re: Good Poker Players Aren't Lucky

#122
post #107
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think thousands of hours playing roulette places you in the 'rational and detached follower of the scientific method' camp, somehow

Thanks for your opinion. Observation is observation and it makes one a bit of an expert. Was it "confirmation bias" and "delusion" when I saw a practicing dealer place the ball on the green zero 4 times in a row? Was it "imagination" when I took advantage of that and won a bunch of money? I have a lot of stories like this. You weren't there. You don't know. You don't have to believe me. If you want to take the time..…

> Was it "confirmation bias" and "delusion" when I saw a practicing dealer place the ball on the green zero 4 times in a row? Was it "imagination" when I took advantage of that and won a bunch of money?

Absolutely. That is a classic case of observational or confirmation bias, with a sample size of one, it shows absolutely nothing. At odds of 36-1 there will be, randomly, one time in 36 when you make an incorrect hypothesis about the way a roulette ball is going to land, and yet by chance it happens the way you 'predicted'. To confirm your hypothesis with any degree of certainty, one would need to have multiple situations of this kind happen repeatedly. You aren't doing that.

Re: Good Poker Players Aren't Lucky

#123
post #107
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think thousands of hours playing roulette places you in the 'rational and detached follower of the scientific method' camp, somehow

Thanks for your opinion. Observation is observation and it makes one a bit of an expert. Was it "confirmation bias" and "delusion" when I saw a practicing dealer place the ball on the green zero 4 times in a row? Was it "imagination" when I took advantage of that and won a bunch of money? I have a lot of stories like this. You weren't there. You don't know. You don't have to believe me. If you want to take the time..…

[deleted]

Re: Good Poker Players Aren't Lucky

#124
post #122
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your opinion. Observation is observation and it makes one a bit of an expert. Was it "confirmation bias" and "delusion" when I saw a practicing dealer place the ball on the green zero 4 times in a row? Was it "imagination" when I took advantage of that and won a bunch of money? I have a lot of stories like this. You weren't there. You don't know. You don't have to believe me. If you want to take the time..…

> Was it "confirmation bias" and "delusion" when I saw a practicing dealer place the ball on the green zero 4 times in a row? Was it "imagination" when I took advantage of that and won a bunch of money? Absolutely. That is a classic case of observational or confirmation bias, with a sample size of one, it shows absolutely nothing. At odds of 36-1 there will be, randomly, one time in 36 when you make an incorrect hypo…

I have seen dealers with this skill many times. And I took advantage of it many times. Read my posts before talking about "sample size". I simply mention __this__ event because it is one of the more skilled dealers I ever encountered.

So... a one in 36 chance. Actually, I'll give you one in 18 as there are two sets of green zeros... 0 and 00.

So what is the chance of this happening 4 times in a row?

1/18 cubed = .000000952 chance of occurring. Probably not confirmation bias. Probably not something one is likely to EVER encounter. (Never mind that I encountered similar many times). If you read the post, I watched her practice doing this. No one was playing at the moment. Then she did it again and I burned her for a lot of money. Read my posts if you care. Or, believe whatever you wish. Roulette is not always random. And if you spent the time I have you would know this.

Re: Good Poker Players Aren't Lucky

#125
post #122
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your opinion. Observation is observation and it makes one a bit of an expert. Was it "confirmation bias" and "delusion" when I saw a practicing dealer place the ball on the green zero 4 times in a row? Was it "imagination" when I took advantage of that and won a bunch of money? I have a lot of stories like this. You weren't there. You don't know. You don't have to believe me. If you want to take the time..…

> Was it "confirmation bias" and "delusion" when I saw a practicing dealer place the ball on the green zero 4 times in a row? Was it "imagination" when I took advantage of that and won a bunch of money? Absolutely. That is a classic case of observational or confirmation bias, with a sample size of one, it shows absolutely nothing. At odds of 36-1 there will be, randomly, one time in 36 when you make an incorrect hypo…

[deleted]

Re: Good Poker Players Aren't Lucky

#126
post #123
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your opinion. Observation is observation and it makes one a bit of an expert. Was it "confirmation bias" and "delusion" when I saw a practicing dealer place the ball on the green zero 4 times in a row? Was it "imagination" when I took advantage of that and won a bunch of money? I have a lot of stories like this. You weren't there. You don't know. You don't have to believe me. If you want to take the time..…

[deleted]

> 1/184 = .000000952 chance of that occurring. Probably not confirmation bias.

On any one set of four throws. Even if you used the smaller probability of the exact result (rather than grouping the two sets of green zeroes), its exactly the same as the chance of any other result of the four throws.

Re: Good Poker Players Aren't Lucky

#127
post #122
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your opinion. Observation is observation and it makes one a bit of an expert. Was it "confirmation bias" and "delusion" when I saw a practicing dealer place the ball on the green zero 4 times in a row? Was it "imagination" when I took advantage of that and won a bunch of money? I have a lot of stories like this. You weren't there. You don't know. You don't have to believe me. If you want to take the time..…

> Was it "confirmation bias" and "delusion" when I saw a practicing dealer place the ball on the green zero 4 times in a row? Was it "imagination" when I took advantage of that and won a bunch of money? Absolutely. That is a classic case of observational or confirmation bias, with a sample size of one, it shows absolutely nothing. At odds of 36-1 there will be, randomly, one time in 36 when you make an incorrect hypo…

[deleted]

Re: Good Poker Players Aren't Lucky

#128
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I'll bite. Why is having a naked futures contract in the S&P500 (which costs around $100,000 for the e-mini) any more risky than owning $100,000 of stocks? [0] http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/equity-index/us-index/e-mini...

Well when you own $100,000 of stock, that's the most you can lose. But vary rarely will ever go down to $0. With futures contracts and derivatives you can potentially lose infinity dollars.

That depends on the leverage you use. If you have 100k and use it to own one 100k contract, it cannot go below zero.

Re: Good Poker Players Aren't Lucky

#129
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

> 1/184 = .000000952 chance of that occurring. Probably not confirmation bias. On any one set of four throws. Even if you used the smaller probability of the exact result (rather than grouping the two sets of green zeroes), its exactly the same as the chance of any other result of the four throws.

Sure, any four (or 4 groups of two in this case) has the same chance of appearing. But... these were a "special" 4 under special circumstances. Coincidence? No way!! I was watching her practice! Context is a big part here. I would love to have a big data set of wheel rolls from all over broken into individual dealers and wheels. Collected without knowledge of the dealer of course (which would likely change that which is observed).

Re: Good Poker Players Aren't Lucky

#130
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without double checking your math, I'm pretty sure the significant error in your conclusion here is modeling the games he's playing as coin flipping with even payouts. The specific game he's playing is actually dropping a percentage each time and is more accurately modeled as "heads I win .98, tails I lose 1". (Technically he's betting $15 for a chance to win $14.69). With that in mind, many fewer than 1 in 28 player…

Typically in poker, you win quickly and lose slowly. This is especially true of tournaments - finishing in the money suddenly does wonders for your balance. So, I would guess that more than 1 in 28 players would show these results, having experienced a random "win quickly" phase that has yet to dissipate. (This might not apply if parent is talking only about 2 player tournaments, but applies to poker generally)

Parent is talking only about 2 player tournaments - that's what the "heads up" part of the description means.
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