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A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

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Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#121

Post by spamizbad »

eshvk wrote: post #62
Aloha wrote: post #43

He's spot on. We Americans focus so very very often on how we disagree rather than how we agree. If you look at both parties, they broadly agree on so many things. Instead we focus on unimportant social issues, shaving a couple percent off government spending, and so on. The educational system we have now is largely a scam, it promises that if you spend tens of thousands (or more) dollars on a 4 year degree, you'd ha…

> The educational system we have now is largely a scam, it promises that if you spend tens of thousands (or more) dollars on a 4 year degree, you'd have a good job waiting on the other side, and its largely BS. So I didn't grow up in the United States so I am not aware of what high school counsellors teach kids, but are there people really selling the idea that if you go to Podunk university and study Asian comparati…

> So I didn't grow up in the United States so I am not aware of what high school counsellors teach kids, but are there people really selling the idea that if you go to Podunk university and study Asian comparative literature, you will end up with a good job?

Yes. And it wasn't just HS guidance councilors pushing this - parents were saying the same thing.

That's because as the white collar workforce in the US expanded in the 1960s through the early 80s, many positions just asked for a 4-year degree. The idea was a college degree showed you were teachable in advanced subjects and you'd do most of your learning on the job. Since then (US) employers have shifted away from job training and prefer candidates who can "hit the ground running." -- either by job experience or relevant degree or both.

Unfortunately, many schools and parents did not pick up on this change for whatever reason.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#122

Post by eropple »

macinjosh wrote: post #39
macinjosh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument is a bit disingenuous if you ask me. A company that legitimately needs worker would be forced to raise their offered wages until they can find employees or would be forced to go out of business. I think the problem is that society has told young people that if they have a 4-year degree they should be making mid to high wages right out of school just because they have a degree. In the real world employer…

@stinkytaco fair point. "Goof off" was a poor choice of words. You pointed out that the work is very hard. I agree but why is that bad? I think that is one of Rowe's biggest points. Doing hard work should be glorified, it should be honorable, it should be something we admire. But American culture has made it a bad thing that should be avoided at any cost. I don't think that is a good thing in the long run.

It's bad because it cause physical damage. Virtually every long-term practitioner of a "hard work" job is damaged: back, knees, neck, hands. It's very often a career that you can't outside past 50.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#123

Post by shubb »

bittercynic wrote: post #58
drig wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of choked on his message of tolerance. We says we should stop talking about how we disagree, then he goes on a tirade against all the lazy, spoiled, stupid people. "We shouldn't disagree on party, but, if you don't agree with me and the GOP, you're a stupid, lazy slob!" He writes very well, but he's still spouting right-wing, pseudo-libertarian nonsense.

The pseudo-libertarian nonsense is unpleasant for me, too, but I see great value in cheer leading for blue collar work. I don't know of anyone else saying "Blue collar work is an honorable thing to do, and you're a fool to judge someone for doing it." At least no one with as high a profile as MR.

Some people do seem to genuinely look down on 'blue collar' work.

Last week, my sisters friends went for a meal out to celebrate her birthday. Her boyfriend drives freight trains, and seems to get some strange attitude from her friends. They are mostly working for free while trying to break into film, or journalism. A few are teachers, which the others seem to see as 'giving up'. Yes, they are hipsters.

I loved this conversation:

Sophie - 'so taking this as an axiom... sorry, have you heard that word before'

Sisters Boyfriend - 'Well, a long time ago my masters was in philosophy ...'

Sophie (double takes) - '... but... why are you driving trains? Surely you could find something better?'

Sisters Boyfriend - 'Well, why are you working as a receptionist for free?'

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#124

Post by randomdata »

stinkytaco wrote: post #30
macinjosh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument is a bit disingenuous if you ask me. A company that legitimately needs worker would be forced to raise their offered wages until they can find employees or would be forced to go out of business. I think the problem is that society has told young people that if they have a 4-year degree they should be making mid to high wages right out of school just because they have a degree. In the real world employer…

I think you might be a wee bit disingenuous as well. There are a few issues with so called "skilled labor" right out of high school: 1. Skilled jobs are hard jobs. They are often limited to men strictly due to the physical ability required (I used to work as a diesel mechanic and it was simply not a job that could be done by most women). This is obviously not universally true: machining, some welding, virtually all e…

Can you clarify #4? I'm actually struggling to see how my programming skills can apply to other jobs in any meaningful way outside of the realm of programming.

I mean, sure, if Microsoft left Seattle today, I could probably find another software company in town to work for. However, I expect at one point in time, machinists could walk into another shop with ease too. There is no reason to believe programmers will always be in high demand.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#125

Post by voronoff »

macinjosh wrote: post #39
macinjosh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument is a bit disingenuous if you ask me. A company that legitimately needs worker would be forced to raise their offered wages until they can find employees or would be forced to go out of business. I think the problem is that society has told young people that if they have a 4-year degree they should be making mid to high wages right out of school just because they have a degree. In the real world employer…

@stinkytaco fair point. "Goof off" was a poor choice of words. You pointed out that the work is very hard. I agree but why is that bad? I think that is one of Rowe's biggest points. Doing hard work should be glorified, it should be honorable, it should be something we admire. But American culture has made it a bad thing that should be avoided at any cost. I don't think that is a good thing in the long run.

There is a difference between doing hard work and working hard. Hard work (of various sorts) for an extended period of time often has a long term negative impact on one's health. The people who do it should be respected, definitely, but glorified? Seems like a bad idea especially considering the lack of transference to other fields and growing automation.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#126

Post by lee »

One factor of the metric that there're "unfilled skilled positions" is that the pay for those positions is still incredibly low. Many of those positions offer compensation near minimum wage, or are laborious enough that it's not worth working for.

So although there are unfilled skilled labor positions, many of those don't fit the supply/demand curve.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#127

Post by taeric »

walkon wrote: post #114
pnathan wrote: post #38

I hadn't heard about Mike Rowe until he started his program to popularize the trades. It's an interesting perspective, and I don't really have a beef about it. But let me make a few factual points, borne out of my experience and the experience I have in growing up around tradespeople and being related to tradespeople. * The trades are physically hard labor edit: It might not be clear what this entails, as perhaps not…

> The trades are physically hard labor Mike Rowe agrees with you, so what's your point? Of course it is hard. Mike's point is our culture is becoming increasingly averse to engaging in hard, physical labor, even in the cases where compensation greatly exceeds that of many other fields.

Wasn't my post, but I believe the point is that the vast majority of people can't physically do some of these jobs.

This is an interesting parallel to the fallacy that many fall into in trying to get really good at sports so that they have a straight path to a lucrative career. Simply put, statistically you are not likely to be able to cut it in that industry.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#128

Post by taeric »

derleth wrote: post #78
pnathan wrote: post #38

I hadn't heard about Mike Rowe until he started his program to popularize the trades. It's an interesting perspective, and I don't really have a beef about it. But let me make a few factual points, borne out of my experience and the experience I have in growing up around tradespeople and being related to tradespeople. * The trades are physically hard labor edit: It might not be clear what this entails, as perhaps not…

> the number of immigrants doing these same hard work in unpleasant conditions while native-born "modern Americans" moan about being unable to find work. Are jobs that pay less than minimum wage even offered to citizens or documented immigrants?

Of course they are. I question their relevance when it comes to considering "liveable" situations, though. Eventually, this becomes akin to thinking someone should stay in an abusive relationship because at least they have that option.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#129

Post by alayne »

randomdata wrote: post #108
alayne wrote: post #88

I don't buy the arguments that trade jobs are a good option. It's especially hard to swallow from a college graduate who belongs to an anti-union political party. Unless you are unwilling or unable to go to college, the numbers indicate that, on average, you will have much lower unemployment and a substantially higher lifetime income.

Markets still remain supply and demand driven. Industries that have roots in college educations have appeared more stable because the number of people with degrees has historically been relatively low. When we have more educated people than jobs that benefit from such an education, incomes will drop and it will become difficult to find work. The trades are starting to gain appeal right now because people have put mor…

Show me any evidence that college educated people, in particular, are having trouble finding employment. These numbers look extremely favorable http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#130

Post by gaadd33 »

ryandrake wrote: post #11
protomyth wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He mentions the data several times, go look at the US Labor stats. Infrastructure jobs are open and we don't have the skilled workers to fill them. ND is importing welders from Canada while road work on the eastern side of the state gets delayed. ND has stats on that too. Some jobs cannot be outsourced. [edit: skilled workers are need more in infrastructure / construction then factories]

"Number of available jobs" is a meaningless statistic. HN-ready example: I'd like to do a web start-up, if only I could find skilled engineers. I'm willing to pay 100 experienced, skilled Java programmers $10/hr to build the site. What? No takers? Not one?? Well, there you go! 100 jobs unfilled. Skills gap! You can't offer poverty-level wages for skilled jobs, then complain that "we don't have the skilled workers" wh…

Wow, six figures for a welder in the Dakotas is poverty level? I can't imagine what you consider a livable wage.
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