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NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

washingtonpost.com

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Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#121

Post by zachrose »

ori_b wrote: post #92
mapgrep wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google was letting information flow between its data centers completely unencrypted until last month . http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/google-enc... Last month! Think about that for a second. Most people on HN wouldn't send a single file to their own backup provider in the clear. Google was sending gushing torrents of data, presumably including email, IMs, etc, over long distances that way. That's v…

> Google was letting information flow between its data center completely unencrypted until last month. http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/google-enc... . Last month! Over their own private WAN. The analogy would be sending things in the clear over your LAN. [Citation: http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~rcs/research/google-onrc-slide... ]

Google doesn't actually own the underwater cables though. So isn't the analogy more like sending things through a LAN in a building that you're renting?

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#122

Post by w_t_payne »

hackula1 wrote: post #87
mkr-hn wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect Google and similarly enormous companies to have a process in place to keep rogue agents from inserting backdoors and malicious code.

While this another angle, I was referring to the fact that many people will see these engineers as immoral and spineless. I know that I would not hire the person who drew that smiley face or any of their accomplices.

And if you did hire that person, I would never trust you again with my business.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#124

Post by scarmig »

hackula1 wrote: post #50
mkr-hn wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google might have an easier time recruiting edge producing developers than the NSA after the leaks.

I imagine anyone with a line on their resume that says "NSA - Software Developer - 2009:Present" is going to have a hard time finding a new job at many companies (although certainly not all).

Breaking: most people, even most people in the tech community, don't look on the NSA with that level of contempt, if any at all.

This is unfortunate--in a just world everyone doing this would be imprisoned for many years and have all their ill-gotten gains stripped from them--but a real fact. And the typical NSA software developer is certainly highly qualified and very, very smart. Going purely by business concerns, if you have a need for someone with the skill set that'd come from working for the NSA, you can't afford to pass them up just because they worked with the NSA.

You can also be sure that, even if the NSA were disbanded fully and all its employees hated so much that they could not get domestic employment anywhere, many international actors would be extremely excited to pay top dollar for their talent. And by top dollar, we're not talking piddling six figure salaries.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#125

Post by moultano »

bediger4000 wrote: post #31
3825 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we have enough information for Google to plausibly deny involvement.

Sure, but the phrase "plausible deniability" just reeks of government and corporate double-speak: "you can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt I did it, so I can keep on doing it." Plausibly denying something is just a propaganda technique. Did Google know or not? Did Google participate or not?

This should make it clear I think: http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-09-06/business/41831...

"Google is racing to encrypt the torrents of information that flow among its data centers around the world in a bid to thwart snooping by the NSA and the intelligence agencies of foreign governments, company officials said Friday."

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#126

Post by swombat »

singlow wrote: post #42
3825 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we have enough information for Google to plausibly deny involvement.

re: bediger4000 The phrase has that smell when used by the person denying. If an action or inaction is taken to preserve plausible deniability, it is smelly. But when used by an observer after the fact, it just means that we have no way to know they knew, unless there is proof. So if they say they didn't know, it is a believable statement.

Based on the fact that they decided to accelerate their internal encryption projects back in September, 2 months ago ( http://www.informationweek.com/security/government/nsa-fallo... ), I'm guessing they thought it might be possible, and in the wake of the Snowden revelations they decided it's very plausible (or someone showed them that slide ahead of time) and so they now effectively "know", though they're not keen to cooperate.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#127

Post by w_t_payne »

cromwellian wrote: post #86

Why didn't they release these documents a long time ago when everyone was racing to judgement that Google, Yahoo, et al were secretly in cahoots with the NSA helping to build drag-net surveillance extranet stuff for them? These are very important revelations! I mean, when Greenwald/Snowden/Guardian released the original PRISM accusations, these slides would have provided a much much more important set of evidence, in…

click-gravy-train; almost certainly.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#128

Post by jrochkind1 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #89
mladenkovacevic wrote: post #71

So does this suggest that Google's SSL encryption can be removed just as easily as that smiley face implies? If this is true my next question would be does NSA have access to the keys or are they removing encryption in some other more technically involved way?

> So does this suggest that Google's SSL encryption can be removed just as easily as that smiley face implies? Well, yes, if you are Google. The removal of SSL is done by Google's own front end servers at the boundary between the public internet and Google's own network, and Google's own network (including its private datacenter-to-datacenter fiber connections) are apparently not encrypted (which saves compute overhe…

Tell me if I understand this right: Google thought it was okay to not encrypt that 'internal' traffic, because even when trans-continental, that traffic was on 'private' Google fiber carrying only Google traffic, not the public internet. It was theoretically on a network that only Google had access to.

That's why it seemed okay not to encrypt it, right? (Otherwise, I don't know why Google would have thought it didn't have to encrypt it).

But the NSA managed to tap into this 'private' fiber anyway, perhaps with the cooperation of the actual telecoms that run it?

Do I have that right?

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#129

Post by chiph »

dlinder wrote: post #26
tptacek wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google appears to have been so on the ball with this stuff that the NSA literally had to send bag men to their cages in order to retain access.

When your opponent uses Navy submarines to tap undersea cables right under the Soviets' noses, you probably shouldn't trust your leased fiber with unencrypted data. This interception could occur where undersea cables make landfall without any datacenter antics.

you probably shouldn't trust your leased fiber with unencrypted data.

Or even your own fiber (Google owns tens of thousands of miles of it). There's nothing to prevent the black-hat guys from digging down to a cable in the middle of nowhere and installing an optical tap. Especially if they did it before commissioning, after which signal levels would start being monitored.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#130

Post by selmnoo »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #44

Meta remark, somewhat snarky: I would like to know at what point do all the HN'ers making fun of those libertarians among us concerned with security -- I believe over a period of months we were called "tinfoil hat types" and worse -- come back and offer us an apology. I am not holding my breath. (Although it's a snarky comment, I didn't make the comment just to snark. The point was to point out that over and over aga…

As someone who routinely makes fun of libertarians, let me assure you this is not what we (or I) make fun of libertarians for. Lots of progressive-oriented folks I know are at the forefront protesting these things. Hell, Richard Stallman -- the man who's been all about resisting the cloud even before a lot of us were born -- is a self-alleged Green Party affiliate.
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