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NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

washingtonpost.com

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Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#21

Post by tonyplee »

segmondy wrote: post #6
tonyplee wrote: post #3

"vice president for security engineering Eric Grosse announced that the company is racing to encrypt the links between its data centers. " Isn't this useless? They can serve Google NSL and the court can force the company to release the SSL keys for the encryptions - just like Lavabit. Google CEO/Board can not shutdown the company like Lavabit. What can they do, get out of USA like how they got out of China?

Lavabit is small. Who did their shutdown directly affect? Imagine Google going down for a full day, even homeless people will raise pitch forks and match down to DC to protest.

I see it as just simple power struggle between companies and government - China won the round against Google a few year back by kicking googe out completely.

The power in US government would love the same leverage.

They will get it eventually - start with NSA in secret, but slowly congress can pass the law and bit by bit....

That's why FB and google are implanting the notions of "no privacy" in everyone's mind. Good for their business and also makes it easier to hand over the data to whoever governments/agencies in the future.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#22

Post by betterunix »

leef wrote: post #13
tonyplee wrote: post #3

"vice president for security engineering Eric Grosse announced that the company is racing to encrypt the links between its data centers. " Isn't this useless? They can serve Google NSL and the court can force the company to release the SSL keys for the encryptions - just like Lavabit. Google CEO/Board can not shutdown the company like Lavabit. What can they do, get out of USA like how they got out of China?

No it's not. The court system, even if it is rumber stamp-y, provides way more visibility and accountibility than secret and total access to Google's data via tapping data links.

The FISC is not visible or accountable to the public. NSLs must be kept secret by law. In other words, all courts do is provide the NSA with a minor speed bump when it wants to wiretap everyone.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#23

Post by 3825 »

reustle wrote: post #17
tptacek wrote: post #2

It's hard not to come to the conclusion that these activities were essentially criminal. I don't see how the administration can fail to disavow them, investigate them fully, and hold their instigators accountable. It feels like Special Prosecutor time. That aside, let me re-make a point I keep making: Google had no knowledge of NSA's physical compromise of their data centers. But still, they pushed harder than anyone…

> Google had no knowledge of NSA's physical compromise of their data centers. Are we sure about that?

I think we have enough information for Google to plausibly deny involvement.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#24

Post by devx »

tptacek wrote: post #2

It's hard not to come to the conclusion that these activities were essentially criminal. I don't see how the administration can fail to disavow them, investigate them fully, and hold their instigators accountable. It feels like Special Prosecutor time. That aside, let me re-make a point I keep making: Google had no knowledge of NSA's physical compromise of their data centers. But still, they pushed harder than anyone…

I'm hoping Google ends up buying the ECC patents from Blackberry and then make them public domain or at least say they will allow everyone to use them for free and with no consequences. I know they want to buy some stuff from Blackberry right now, but not sure if they are considering buying the ECC patents, too, or not.

I'd feel a lot better if Google bought them than say Microsoft or some other company, who'd just try to collect royalties from anyone using them, and I feel that will make things a lot worse for security on the web in the future, especially with Microsoft's long-standing relationship with the NSA.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-c...

That being said, I'm very disappointed in Larry Page's statement about encryption and quantum computers:

> Lloyd made his pitch, proposing a quantum version of Google’s search engine whereby users could make queries and receive results without Google knowing which questions were asked. The men were intrigued. But after conferring with their business manager the next day, Brin and Page informed Lloyd that his scheme went against their business plan. “They want to know everything about everybody who uses their products and services,” he joked.

It bothers me a lot that the leaders of Google would think like that, even though I knew they would because of the incentives in their business. But I just wish they found way for their business to work, so they do not have to think like that, and be more on the side of users on this issue, than they are right now.

Unless their thinking about user-privacy and security changes, we should never fully trust Google (even if they are better than the rest right now). That sort of thinking means they will never go the all the way to protect their users, which probably why you will never see OTR or ZRTP in Google's chat services. All the data collection they do will also become increasingly more irresistible to governments, especially if they keep it forever.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/10/computers-big-data...

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#25

Post by chris_mahan »

tptacek wrote: post #10
gohrt wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with everything you say, Google was still defeated by the NSA. Will Google ever catch up in this arms race? "95% encrypted" == "100% compromised"

Google appears to have been so on the ball with this stuff that the NSA literally had to send bag men to their cages in order to retain access.

Wait, so until google can defend its cages against the g-men, then all efforts will be in vain.

Also, in other countries, I assume those g-men have access to those cages.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#26

Post by dlinder »

tptacek wrote: post #10
gohrt wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with everything you say, Google was still defeated by the NSA. Will Google ever catch up in this arms race? "95% encrypted" == "100% compromised"

Google appears to have been so on the ball with this stuff that the NSA literally had to send bag men to their cages in order to retain access.

When your opponent uses Navy submarines to tap undersea cables right under the Soviets' noses, you probably shouldn't trust your leased fiber with unencrypted data. This interception could occur where undersea cables make landfall without any datacenter antics.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#27

Post by balabaster »

You know, one thing I'm sure (hope) will come out of this is that enough people in the public should be sufficiently outraged at this that we start making some private sector headway in the data security race and perhaps we'll end up with some actual secure products by companies that aren't under the "jurisdiction" of U.S. policy, instead of those that just say they're secure but fall flat on their face when it comes to something as trivial as an NSL or an order for a pen register. If they were really secure, then these things wouldn't make the slightest difference.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#29

Post by dombili »

wyck wrote: post #5

Is that an official document with an actual smiley face? What ever happened to the admins / programmers standing up for what is right, or do they just gobble down a paycheck and turn the other way?

It's not just that either. They seem to enjoy it and think that this is a game. If you're going to violate our basic rights, at least take it seriously, guys.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#30

Post by BigTuna »

jakewalker wrote: post #4

If that graphic - that taunting smiley face, drawn when it was assumed that no one was watching - isn't enough to outrage the general public, I don't know what it will take. This is not super technical - it's easily explained and should be easily understood by the masses. And it should cause outrage.

If people were going to get outraged about that, they would have burned the country to the ground when they learned that several NSA operations were given Civil War battles for codenames. You know, the only war where Americans have ever been our own enemy.
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