Live data from Hacker News

Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S.

bloomberg.com

121–130 of 276 posts

Re: Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S.

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. You seem to be trying to defend the cost of a $100,000 operation by making a snarky comparison with outsourcing an IT project. Is that actually what you meant?

patio11 has a long history of making snarky comments about how outsourcing to India should not be a concern to Western IT workers because the quality of Indian IT workers is much lower than that of Western IT workers and clients will ultimately recognize this and hire a Westerner instead. This is presumably something that is quite near and dear to him, as he is an American expat who lives in Gifu, a tiny, rural Japan…

There's one problem with your argument: patio11 doesn't actually do consulting anymore.

http://www.kalzumeus.com/2013/07/17/kalzumeus-podcast-5-quit...

Re: Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S.

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. You seem to be trying to defend the cost of a $100,000 operation by making a snarky comparison with outsourcing an IT project. Is that actually what you meant?

patio11 has a long history of making snarky comments about how outsourcing to India should not be a concern to Western IT workers because the quality of Indian IT workers is much lower than that of Western IT workers and clients will ultimately recognize this and hire a Westerner instead. This is presumably something that is quite near and dear to him, as he is an American expat who lives in Gifu, a tiny, rural Japan…

My long history of comments on the issue generally references my time at the old Japanese day job, where I was pressganged into dealing with our Indian subsidiary and asked to shepherd the five folks who came to work at our Nagoya location from it. This is what I was doing during three years of 100 hour weeks.

A more charitable read of my old comments would be "The project(s) were beset by communication issues, terribly managed by the Japanese company (which, in the fine tradition of Japanese companies, I'll take blame for since I was unable to resolve it despite trying), and additionally undermined by pervasive competence issues."

I'm not talking my book here. In the first place, I don't have a book, as I no longer consult. In the second case, Indian BPO firms are less competitive with me than Chinese take out restaurants: our target customers are different, our projects are different, our marketing methods are different, etc etc.

Re: Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S.

#123
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In agricultural terminology you can either pay people 'by the day' or pay them 'by the hundred yards'. I have worked in both types of systems and can see merits and pitfalls in both. In the former system there can woeful output whilst in the latter there can be woeful quality. Neither of these are inevitable. In a salary system, if the lazy/incompetent can 'get away with it' and the industrious/competent aren't ackno…

Those aren't the only two options. If you want to incentivize outcomes and efficiency, fee-for-outcome is an obvious option.

When it comes to medical care, you have to be really careful about how you define "outcome" if you want to use that as an incentive. You can't just use patient recovery/survival, because then you'd have doctors avoiding patients that need their care the most. You'd also continue to get extraordinary measures taken to extend the life of patients that can't survive, even when letting them go is the more humane thing to do to ease their suffering.

I've thought about this a lot, and I don't think there is any objective way to provide outcome-based incentives. The best I could think of is peer-reviewed judgements of outcomes, but that could become pretty corrupt.

Re: Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S.

#124

First, adjusted for PPP that is more like $3,000. Second, nearly all personal and professional services cost way more in the U.S. Try hiring a nanny in India versus the U.S. and compare the prices. In any case, whenever you talk about prices, it's important to try and think about it in terms of supply and demand. Why might prices for similar services be lower in India? In both countries, the price for that heart surg…

Another thing to analyze is what's called "diseconomies of scale" where costs and/or prices rise with scale. Also many countries subsidize the health sector.

Re: Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S.

#125
post #50

Somewhere there is a forum of doctors saying "Pfft, the US firm wants $100k for the patient records system and the Indian firm wants $1,000. Those greedy bastards! They live in a toxic industry which acts as parasites on us noble public servants saving lives every day. It serves them right to deal with international competition finally. Let's go with the Indian bidder. What could possibly go wrong."

Not sure what you're trying to say here. You seem to be trying to defend the cost of a $100,000 operation by making a snarky comparison with outsourcing an IT project. Is that actually what you meant?

No, I'm suggesting that HN commenters here are likely far less competent to speculate about the cost structure of heart operations than believe themselves to be. In an analogous situation which they actually understand, the tenor of this comment thread would reverse in a hurry. (Which we could ascribe partly to self interest but in major degree to "Deliver X for the US market in America" and "Deliver X for the Indian market in India" being two very, very different propositions.)

Re: Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S.

#126
post #50

Somewhere there is a forum of doctors saying "Pfft, the US firm wants $100k for the patient records system and the Indian firm wants $1,000. Those greedy bastards! They live in a toxic industry which acts as parasites on us noble public servants saving lives every day. It serves them right to deal with international competition finally. Let's go with the Indian bidder. What could possibly go wrong."

Hi patio11, Thanks to femto, we have some data. It seems that the 30 day mortality rate is lower than that in the US. Care to answer this other than with thinly veiled casual racism? Dr Shetty's success rates appear to be as good as those of many hospitals abroad. Narayana Hrudayalaya reports a 1.4 per cent mortality rate within 30 days of coronary artery bypass graft surgery, one of the most common procedures, compa…

I will say that you are comparing one doctor to the national average. This only shows he is better than average, but what is the Indian average mortality rate. Another issue that your article mentions is that he specializes on a select procedure and another doctor mentions that this option of specialization is not available to all surgeons.

Don't take this as part of any sides argument. All I want to point out is that the numbers you provide only paint part of the picture. Yes maybe flying to India for this one doctors procedure would be worthwhile but is it true across the board.

Re: Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S.

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those aren't the only two options. If you want to incentivize outcomes and efficiency, fee-for-outcome is an obvious option.

When it comes to medical care, you have to be really careful about how you define "outcome" if you want to use that as an incentive. You can't just use patient recovery/survival, because then you'd have doctors avoiding patients that need their care the most. You'd also continue to get extraordinary measures taken to extend the life of patients that can't survive, even when letting them go is the more humane thing to…

For rare conditions and the very sick, there are a lot of thorny issues, and fee-for-outcome may be hard to implement well. However, those don’t represent the bulk of medical procedures; the vast majority of what’s done in a hospital is utterly routine and predictable, and the outcomes are most definitely quantifiable.

Re: Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S.

#128
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely happening in Eastern European countries, too, and probably even some of the western ones Careful here. I live in London for several years now, and from my experience Eastern European doctors are much better qualified then Western European. I'm originally from Poland, and medical studies are really hard, and people spend whole 6 years cramming just to become an apprentice to the doctor (it's Bachelo…

Same reason why many people in the Netherlands got their eyes lasered in Turkey. Both cheaper (including the flight) and better qualifications (if anything by experience). This was a few years ago though, from what I've seen the costs for eye lasering here seem to be catching up a little. Frankly I'm a bit surprised by all the people in this thread saying "well that's a huge price difference, but how do you know Indi…

Because everyone born in a capitalist society has been taught from day one that "the more expensive the better." Just as you would assume a $200k car is a really good one.

Re: Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S.

#129
Can't resist posting this anecdote from Atul Gawande's (best known for his New Yorker medical pieces, such as the one about checklists) book, Better: A Surgeon's Notes on Performance...at the end, he describes spending some time in India as a visiting surgeon to see how innovation was possible in comparatively squalid circumstances. The Nanded hospital he describes below serves 1,400 villages, about 2.3 million people, with just 9 surgeons (Gawande says that'd be comparable to the state of Kansas having 9 surgeons):

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0312427654

note: It's a little OT, but I guess it's an interesting anecdote because it talks about how absolutely significant surgical innovation (not just, "good for the India masses") can occur in desperate situations. I have no idea if that applies to the state of the art of heart surgery in India.

------------

Among the many distressing things I saw in Nanded, one was the incredible numbers of patients with perforated ulcers. In my eight years of surgical training, I had seen only one patient with an ulcer so severe that the stomach’s acid had eroded a hole in the intestine. But Nanded is in a part of the country where people eat intensely hot chili peppers, and patients arrived almost nightly with the condition, usually in severe pain and going into shock after the hours of delay involved in traveling from their villages.

The only treatment at that point is surgical. A surgeon must take the patient to the operating room urgently, make a slash down the middle of the abdomen, wash out all the bilious and infected fluid, find the hole in the duodenum, and repair it. This is a big and traumatic operation, and often these patients were in no condition to survive it. So Motewar did a remarkable thing. He invented a new operation: a laparoscopic repair of the ulcerous perforation, using quarter-inch incisions and taking an average of forty-five minutes.

When I later told colleagues at home about the operation, they were incredulous. It did not seem possible. Motewar, however, had mulled over the ulcer problem off and on for years and became convinced he could devise a better treatment. His department was able to obtain some older laparoscopic equipment inexpensively. An assistant was made personally responsible for keeping it clean and in working order. And over time, Motewar carefully worked out his technique.

I saw him do the operation, and it was elegant and swift. He even did a randomized trial, which he presented at a conference and which revealed the operation to have fewer complications and a far more rapid recovery than the standard procedure. In that remote, dust-covered town in Maharashtra, Motewar and his colleagues had become among the most proficient ulcer surgeons in the world.

Re: Heart Surgery in India for $1,583 Costs $106,385 in U.S.

#130
post #87

I'd like to point out that the price difference is most likely to do with the marked conditions of the health care in general, and has nothing to do with the quality of the operation itself. There is a big problem with health care in most countries that I've been living into for extended periods of time (France, Italy and to a lesser extent Germany). Anything sorrounding "medical" and/or "health care" has a 10x-100x…

What you describe sounds a lot like the problems the developed when supplying to government in general, whether it be IT, military, transport, etc. That said to me the US system sounds like it's so rigged that it has developed many of the same problems you encounter with government inflicted monopolies.

I wonder how many medical offices with a staff of 3 have a Cisco 3950 in the closet...
Post reply on HN