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German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

krebsonsecurity.com

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Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#121

Post by groby_b »

foepys wrote: post #99
hobofan wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not deep into the topic, but AFAIK there generally isn't a warm connection between the CCC and the BND in Germany (in the recent years mostly due to the BNDs involvement ins spying on German citizens, but I think there is also deeper history there). If a hacker collaborates with the BND they do run a risk of many of their peers not wanting to collaborate with them anymore.

It also has something to do with the so called "Hackerparagraph" [1] under which whitehat hacking is basically impossible in Germany. Even writing a program that could potentially be used for hacking is a crime. If you followed the law word for word the authors of e.g. curl could be charged under this law. 1: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorbereiten_des_Aussp%C3%A4hen... [de]

> If you followed the law word for word the authors of e.g. curl could be charged under this law.

They really couldn't. BVerfG (Germany's constitutional court) has clearly said that dual use tools have a presumption of not being tools to break the law. It's been very clear that mens rea matters. And that a narrow reading of the law is the only constitutional reading.

The problem here is taking "word for word" as "by dictionary meaning", which is never how laws are read.

It's still a problematic law (together with §202a/b) because it doesn't clearly carve out space for grey-hat activities (white-hat attacks with authorization really don't fall under it even with creative reading).

On the upside, Germany is considering fixing that. On the downside, it moves with the speed of classic German bureaucracy and is being "discussed" since 2024.

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#122

Post by [deleted] »

foepys wrote: post #99
hobofan wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not deep into the topic, but AFAIK there generally isn't a warm connection between the CCC and the BND in Germany (in the recent years mostly due to the BNDs involvement ins spying on German citizens, but I think there is also deeper history there). If a hacker collaborates with the BND they do run a risk of many of their peers not wanting to collaborate with them anymore.

It also has something to do with the so called "Hackerparagraph" [1] under which whitehat hacking is basically impossible in Germany. Even writing a program that could potentially be used for hacking is a crime. If you followed the law word for word the authors of e.g. curl could be charged under this law. 1: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorbereiten_des_Aussp%C3%A4hen... [de]

[deleted]

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#123

Post by oytis »

jojomodding wrote: post #93
flipped wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The wildfire industry brings growth but it would be a whole lot better if we didn't have wildfires. The same thing is true with computers. Imagine all the nice things we could have if we didn't have to worry about people abusing the systems we build.

Well, to be honest, those old enough remember when cryptography was considered someting for the military and special services, and considering using encryption would put you under immediate suspicion. Now we can at least argue we need it to protect us from the cyber crime, even if we really have privacy and free speech in mind

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#125

Post by wstrange »

Computer0 wrote: post #116
signatoremo wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but do you consider this specific case a real crime?

[flagged]

Insurance money doesn't grow on trees. The economy is highly connected, so increased costs impact most consumers.

Ransomware is a scourge enabled by crypto. We should do whatever we can to eliminate it.

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#126

Post by mghackerlady »

nailer wrote: post #66
KPGv2 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Doxxing" is from the 90s and was used to describe a hacker unmasking another hacker so they could be arrested. That's almost exactly the same usage as here.

I can't find it in the jargon file: http://catb.org/jargon/html/D.html

(someone really needs to make a new jargon file, if not out of practicality then for archival reasons)

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#127

Post by sho_hn »

flipped wrote: post #80
seanhunter wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the “Broken Window” fallacy[1] which was explained by Bastiat. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

[flagged]

It's not a "made-up term", it's shorthand for a well-known argument. Not allowing re-usable arguments is like not allowing the use of libraries in software: It wastes time better spent on moving the frontier forward.

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#128

Post by aaron695 »

Sharlin wrote: post #57
KPGv2 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Doxxing" is from the 90s and was used to describe a hacker unmasking another hacker so they could be arrested. That's almost exactly the same usage as here.

Semantic shift happens over time. A 2026 article is supposed to communicate to 2026, not 1996, readers.

[dead]

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#129

Post by cineticdaffodil »

hobofan wrote: post #85
jojomodding wrote: post #53

So apparently some CCC-connected hackers already unmasked one of them years ago (as reported in the update, which could have also just linked to the talk here: https://media.ccc.de/v/37c3-12134-hirne_hacken_hackback_edit... ) Makes you wonder if the investigators discovered this independently, or decided to maybe ask the hackers already involved in defending against them for help...

I'm not deep into the topic, but AFAIK there generally isn't a warm connection between the CCC and the BND in Germany (in the recent years mostly due to the BNDs involvement ins spying on German citizens, but I think there is also deeper history there). If a hacker collaborates with the BND they do run a risk of many of their peers not wanting to collaborate with them anymore.

Well at least the german state can collaborate with russian agents in projects like wirecard and not violate any laws when threatening journalists reporting on its collaborations.

Re: German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware groups

#130

Post by DFHippie »

Computer0 wrote: post #124
twodave wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. "No people I agree with were harmed," perhaps. This is no different than cronyism.

businesses are not people

If a business is destroyed by ransomware, all its employees lose their jobs. The business's customers lose the services the business was providing. The families supported by these jobs are now all at risk.

All that money goes somewhere. Much of it goes towards clothing, feeding, and housing people. Also, in most places it's a crime to rob anyone, even selfish assholes.

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