Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

laurasanders.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 213 posts

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#121

Post by zachinglis »

toadburglar wrote: post #115
zachinglis wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really disappointed you decided to use phrases like "Laura The Troll." It's funny. Those who've disagreed with Laura have come down to name calling and such. Faruk's a good guy. But because he worked for Apple means nothing. Absolutely squat. If you judge people's worth on who they've worked for, then that's worrying. It's not who you've worked for - it's what you've done (Modernizr was a good link in this.) I kn…

What are your thoughts on the rashness of publishing her post, rather than attempting (more than just Twitter) to improve the article. What we could have had is a truly great (and revised) article on the top of HN rather than this troll inducing post and discussion?

Basically; I copy edited this article once she was done so I'm biased. But I do agree the rashness didn't help. HOWEVER! She was planning on writing something like this for many months. In the long run, I think a calmer article would have helped her but I absolutely agree with what she has to say.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#122

Post by trhtrsh »

panda_person wrote: post #64
an_actual_man wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to provide an example of sexism to back-up your rant?

Here's an example from my own experience: There's a significant number of trans women who work in tech. And almost all of them started transitioning as adults, in their 20s and 30s. So, they had the "benefit" of male socialization growing up, and being encouraged more to dabble in computers/tech/engineering. Much fewer trans men (and non trans women) in tech, it seems. Also, the number of women historically majoring…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism#Prevalence

The DSM-IV (1994) quotes a prevalence of roughly 1 in 30,000 assigned males and 1 in 100,000 assigned females seek sex reassignment surgery in the USA.

So there's a 3x factor feeding into that.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#123

Post by papsosouid »

Cushman wrote: post #95
papsosouid wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that is that people's perception of what it means is more important than what is in a dictionary. Given the dictionary definition, one would have to assume 100% of women would be feminists. By the dictionary definition, it makes no sense for any women not to be a feminist. Yet 75% of women refuse to self-identify as feminists. The baggage that comes with the term has too much weight for the dictionar…

Think a little about what you're saying here. For example, the dictionary definition of atheism is a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. However, many religious people believe that atheism is a conscious rejection of an existing God, a deliberate embracing of evil, and that all atheists are intrinsically amoral or indeed im moral. This understanding is so common that most people who do not believe in a go…

I'm not sure what you were hoping to get from that post. I have thought about it. I know people in the US don't identify as atheists because the word has lost its original meaning there. So?

People don't refuse to self-identify as feminists because "hateful organizations and individuals have been attacking the word as a proxy for attacking the concept", they refuse because other self-identified feminists promote hatred and radicalism that most people find objectionable.

Who is being let off of the hook? Radical gender feminists took over feminism and alienated women. What hook are they supposed to be on and how are they being let off?

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#124

Post by zachinglis »

rada wrote: post #99

The original "Primer On Sexism" : 8 points and dead, 0 comments The Rebuttal: 150 points and rising, 140+ comments If that in and of itself doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes of the majority of HN readers - and as such, the tech industry as a whole - I don't know what does. Surely a long, thoughtful article, with tons of context in the form of links and research, written by the creator of Modernizr and a…

Also, her employers are a MAJOR agency. They have been partners of the year for Windows Phone, their client list is both long and high-profile.

"And Laura, if you are reading this, a small bit of advice for you. Next time an article "enrages" you, re-read it and I guarantee you will see that it doesn't say what you think it does." I think you need to take your own advice.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#125

Post by Cushman »

zachinglis wrote: post #112
rada wrote: post #99

The original "Primer On Sexism" : 8 points and dead, 0 comments The Rebuttal: 150 points and rising, 140+ comments If that in and of itself doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes of the majority of HN readers - and as such, the tech industry as a whole - I don't know what does. Surely a long, thoughtful article, with tons of context in the form of links and research, written by the creator of Modernizr and a…

I'm really disappointed you decided to use phrases like "Laura The Troll." It's funny. Those who've disagreed with Laura have come down to name calling and such. Faruk's a good guy. But because he worked for Apple means nothing. Absolutely squat. If you judge people's worth on who they've worked for, then that's worrying. It's not who you've worked for - it's what you've done (Modernizr was a good link in this.) I kn…

I ain't touching the whole argument over form, but this:

> Laura's not the only person who's expressed this view. Many people in the comemnts have agreed (and disagreed)

I think gets at precisely the point. Your average HN reader, the one who's making these agreeing or disagreeing comments, is probably a cis man who doesn't think of himself as sexist, and understandably doesn't want to think that his industry is sexist either.

The criticism here is that a relatively thin article denying sexism is being given more weight and credence than a much more exhaustive article documenting sexism, because 1) it's saying what we want to hear, and 2) its author is a woman, which-- well, I shouldn't need to point out the irony there.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#126

Post by trhtrsh »

jenandre wrote: post #50

Ehh... Yeah. The original article was kind of a pile of crap, but it's hard to give this any credibility either. 1) She's only worked for 6 months 2) She works in UX, which is actually pretty well represented by women. My two cents from a woman who actually works in a technical position (I'm a developer) for > 10 years now. Also working in infosec, which is one of the least represented when it comes to gender balance…

> (and it's worse when people point it out -- I was asked an interview for a programming teaching position at a university BY A PROFESSOR "how will you handle it if people don't take you seriously as a female?")

There are good ways and bad ways to broach the topic, but this is an important question to answer. Not as a hiring filter per se, but as a likely problem that needs a solution.

I went to college with (And teaching-assisted / tutored) classmates older than me, and I had to deal with the issue of "how will you handle it if people don't take you seriously as a young person?" (I didn't deal with it very well, until I got old enough that a couple of years of age difference wasn't significant anymore. Gender doesn't fade away like youth does, so gender-related issues needs active problem-solving)

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#127

Post by bobsy »

Isn't sexism like anything else? There are extreme cases, quite often though just speaking up resolves it.

I have a stutter and I have been in many jobs where I have been the butt of some jokes. I have been overlooked or talked over. People have played 'guess the word' when i get stuck... i could go on.

I find in the vast majority of cases a quiet word, a quick bit of education or just straight up shutting someone down makes such problems perminantly go away.

There is sexism in the tech industry, i am sure there is some racism and whatever else as well. There will always be people who intentionally or not say something that offends. Your work place experience will depend on how you react to that.

My experience of the tech industry has shown that it handles complaints well and deals with issues that arise in a positive way. I think this is what people should focus on.

I saw a documentary about a fish market where women should be good wives at home. The few women who worked there were subject to daily sexist remarks. They had a choice. Ignore it or quit... There are far worse places to work than in technology

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#128

Post by zachinglis »

Cushman wrote: post #125
zachinglis wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really disappointed you decided to use phrases like "Laura The Troll." It's funny. Those who've disagreed with Laura have come down to name calling and such. Faruk's a good guy. But because he worked for Apple means nothing. Absolutely squat. If you judge people's worth on who they've worked for, then that's worrying. It's not who you've worked for - it's what you've done (Modernizr was a good link in this.) I kn…

I ain't touching the whole argument over form, but this: > Laura's not the only person who's expressed this view. Many people in the comemnts have agreed (and disagreed) I think gets at precisely the point. Your average HN reader, the one who's making these agreeing or disagreeing comments, is probably a cis man who doesn't think of himself as sexist, and understandably doesn't want to think that his industry is sexi…

Read the comments on her blog too. First is from a woman, and go down.

There are people on both sides of the fence, as you'd expect. But the the original commenter was so blindsided in her views about how she thought the OP was blinded in her views, she didn't even stop to smell the irony.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#129

Post by trhtrsh »

Toshio wrote: post #11

Randi Harper a.k.a. FreeBSD Girl was interviewed for the FLOSS Weekly podcast and she said that every minute spent on discussing gender issues in technology is a wasted minute that should be better spent building free software.

So is every minute evangelizing for AWS....

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#130

Post by stephencanon »

trhtrsh wrote: post #120
belorn wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its interesting that the tech industry has so high number of people that learned the basic work skills at a very low age. Very few other professions has this. A plumber did not go around fixing pipes at age 10. A medic, while they might have played doctor, do not really learn any of the basic skills until hitting university education. The lawyer when he was 10 is unlikely to be reading law documents. Beyond maybe the…

> A medic, while they might have played doctor, do not really learn any of the basic skills until hitting university education. The medics I know personally: * Volunteered in ER in high school -> Doctor * EMT and high-hours babysitting in college -> Children's Therapist Also, sports profession :-)

My wife: Swam competitively, studied philosophy and religion as an undergrad -> Neurosurgeon.

More anecdata: all of the best engineers I know came to it late, after doing other things first.

Post reply on HN