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On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

laurasanders.net

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Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#51
post #12

How does such a waste of bandwidth even get 27 points? Is this site infested with feminists or what?

I think this is living proof that throw away accounts should be dealt with on here. If someone really wants to participate, a good 6/12 hours cool down without posting privileges would do nicely. I don't think anyone wins anything on here with this sort of reddit novelty account phenomenon. It will not stop all trolling, just this sort of troll.

They're already green, so you know which ones to ignore if that's how you feel.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're describing egalitarianism, not feminism. When you see an article being advertised as "by an actual girl", you know it's not about equality.

"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women."

Wow, people still fall for that bullshit? Where did you take that from, jezebel?

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#53
post #11

Randi Harper a.k.a. FreeBSD Girl was interviewed for the FLOSS Weekly podcast and she said that every minute spent on discussing gender issues in technology is a wasted minute that should be better spent building free software.

And every minute spent denigrating another human being about being different than yourself, or different than the group you are with, or for any other reason is a wasted minute that should be better spent building free software. If we would just concentrate on A) getting our jobs done (or rather, just living our lives) and B) not being assholes, sexism wouldn't be an issue.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#54
post #11

Randi Harper a.k.a. FreeBSD Girl was interviewed for the FLOSS Weekly podcast and she said that every minute spent on discussing gender issues in technology is a wasted minute that should be better spent building free software.

That seems to be a very myopic, short-term and self-serving take on the issue/debate.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#55
post #36
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would it have been industry sexism that meant I wasn't a developer? No. It would have been lack of exposure to the possibility at a young age. Not being told that certain opportunities are open to you because of your gender is sexism. This goes beyond child hood. People assume because of you're gender you will or will not be into certain job prospects and other activities. This is sexism.

I don't think that's what thisone was getting at. While I was growing up (late 80's into 90's), developing software and working on computers wasn't encouraged for a career path, for both boys and girls. It was always referred to as a hobby and one that wasn't looked upon very highly. Somehow I had a natural attraction to working with computers and software and that took me to where I am today working as a software en…

It was always referred to as a hobby and one that wasn't looked upon very highly.

I never see this point come up much but I can tell you that when I was growing up "geek" was a pejorative term and the guys who were into computers were largely social outcasts. I can remember in high school the kinds of guys who sat on IRC chatting with their little "cyber friends" being made fun of. And I don't think they ever got much of a chance to "exclude" girls since my bet is most of them never had much luck getting one to talk to them in the first place. I don't doubt that sexism helps fuel the gender gap we see in tech, but sometimes it seems like people forget that the original demographic in this industry was by and large made up of socially awkward males who pursued their hobby despite being looked down upon and excluded by others, not because of the heaps of encouragement they were receiving.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#57
post #31

There is certainly sexism in the tech industry. It's not terribly common or widespread, but it's there. But the tech industry is also famously self-selective. Many people in the industry self-selected for it when they were pre-teens. Spending hours upon hours programming in BASIC or whatever on their C64s or TRS-80s before they were out of elementary school...before thoughts of sexism enter the consciousness. There i…

Care to provide an example of sexism to back-up your rant?

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#58

Faruk Ateş' at least got this part right: The tone of our debates – which often get quite heated – is frequently different based on the gender of the author(s). Sanders' article seems a little more rant-y than it should be for someone who is basing her experiences "in the industry" (UK) since April 2012. Not that a relatively small amount of experience means you can't have an opinion, but it can't be good to become t…

Let's just say "I know a gal" who was fired from a company in the Valley because of that very discrimination. She had a master's degree and had been at the company almost 1+ year when she discovered that than the guy she was training, a dropout art school student whose "industry experience" amounted to working at Home Depot as a cashier was earning more. When my friend asked for equal pay for equal work, citing Obama's signing of Lily Ledbetter, her employers cut her salary to hourly, started writing her up for even the most minor infraction, and eventually ended up firing her. From what she tells me, she was unable to afford legal representation, Silicon Valley attorneys literally laughed at her (said they would not take the case for free), so she ended up signing a stack of legal mumbo jumbo that literally raped her of all her legal rights.

It's very hard to take this story at face value.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#59
post #32

Sexism that I've noticed has been very subtle. I work with some very intelligent people, so I can't imagine anyone is overtly sexist (ie. thinking that women can't do this job, would not hire a person simply based on gender etc.), but still, there are problems. It's hard to write about sexism as a guy without feeling like you're coming off as sexist, but hey, I probably am. Also, it's hard to write about things witho…

> (being married makes this a little bit less awkward for me)

I would think that it would make it MORE awkward for you to ask a female colleague to go out.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#60
So sexism, like any form of discrimination, doesn't just come in shocking bright red, "hey honey, why don't we go into the copy room for some hubba hubba". Rape can be a sexist act of violence, that's an extreme. Just because that extreme exists doesn't mean that less obvious forms of sexism and discrimination aren't ugly and evil.

A really pernicious dirty disgusting thing about sexism (and racism) is that it can be subtle, and hidden, and still hurt people. Pay rates, job discrimination, advancement are examples. Pressure to conform to a feminine ideal or be see as "bitchy" or overly aggressive.

So yeah, that's one bad thing. There are plenty of bad things. And sexism is bad for your business. Because discrimination doesn't just mean that some people are privileged over others. It means viewpoints, ideas, projects etc. from people who are women are not given the attention they deserve not because they are lacking, but because their source lacks testes. Discrimination doesn't just hurt women, it hurts everybody.

You advance a guy over a more deserving woman... you are hurting your business. sexism is suboptimal. It doesn't even have to be that obvious. You make a person feel unhappy or uncomfortable at work and the work their team is doing will suffer, if only because of the communication problems that arise.

Even if you aren't sexist (and it's hard to be a hundred percept free from stuff like that) sexism still informs the industry. The things you do that contribute to you being a programmer are often informed by gender roles and expectations. Math class for example.

Anyway, I recently came up with a test for sexism. It's a test I fail, but it makes me think. Ask yourself, is it better for something, a hobby, a sport, whatever to be manly or womanly?

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