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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#121

Post by ChocolateGod »

naasking wrote: post #26
bjord wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is this just weird religious adherence to the belief that a multi-language codebase will be harder to maintain? what's the rationale, exactly?

Maintainers come and go, languages come and go. C will never go away and everyone working on kernels knows C, so there's a certain labour pool and skillset that will always be available that doesn't necessarily apply to Rust. That's even setting aside any technical issues, like bugs creeping up in the language interoperability layer, which obviously doesn't really happen if you're only using one compiler.

I think both arguments have credibility.

The R4L says they will make sure the Rust code is fixed when the C code is, and that's admirable, but the concern it means a developer now has to wait for that, holding up their work for release/submission. The bus factor is now on the R4L team.

Meanwhile, everyone involved in development for Linux already knows C.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#122

Post by starspangled »

Philpax wrote: post #114
starspangled wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, perhaps a C-only Linux would do that and die, and perhaps it would continue its customization of C flavor and runtime it uses (e.g., the various static and dynamic memory limitations and checkers) and closes the gap with Rust to a point where the incremental benefit of using it is not significant enough that it makes a Rust based competitor an inevitability. We may already be beyond that point, even.

The changes required to bring C to a Rust level of safety would make it an entirely different language, even when restricted to the kernel's domain. Also, if you're already doing codebase-specific patches to the language itself, many of the arguments around codebase portability that justify the use of C fall apart. Aside from that, there are other benefits to Rust than safety: it's better at modelling data and states…

> The changes required to bring C to a Rust level of safety would make it an entirely different language, even when restricted to the kernel's domain.

Maybe. 1. It may not have to be "Rust-level of safety" to be good enough to make Rust benefit less compelling. 2. Linux C is already a different languag than C, continued incremental changes might be a better way to get there than adding Rust even if it does become very different in the end.

> Also, if you're already doing codebase-specific patches to the language itself, many of the arguments around codebase portability that justify the use of C fall apart.

Sure, but Linux never had a "codebase portability" argument. It always had to be GCC C. It eventually made some relatively small changes to allow clang to compile it, the far bulk of that work being changing of clang to behave like GCC.

> Aside from that, there are other benefits to Rust than safety: it's better at modelling data and states, as the now-infamous filesystem talk [0] outlined.

Yeah, it's not only safety improvements that are in Linux-C.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#123

Post by flohofwoe »

randmeerkat wrote: post #34
Cumpiler69 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but comes of as looking for drama and virtue signalling oftentimes It's easier to name the major Linux FOSS projects that DON'T have drama and virtue signaling than the ones with. If you read the Github comments on System-D, GNOME, etc, it's like watching children bickering on Sega VS Nintendo. Turns out FOSS devs are humas just like everybody else and suffer from the same flaws.

> Turns out FOSS devs are humas just like everybody else and suffer from the same flaws. It is rather anticlimactic. I had always imagined FOSS to be this free exchange of ideas, thoughtful consideration, and intentional action. Seeing what it has become though… Maybe closed source is better.

> Seeing what it has become though...

Was it ever different? Not as far as I can remember at least. I think one of the main strengths of open source development is that it works despite the drama.

With open source projects, everybody is free to start their own fork over disagreements, and if the fork actually turns out to be objectively better it will replace the original project.

> Maybe closed source is better.

It's the same and worse over there, the drama just isn't public.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#124

Post by gpm »

noirscape wrote: post #17
AgentME wrote: post #4

If an individual maintainer can veto critical parts of the Rust for Linux project and announce they'll do everything they can to stop it, then Linus is wasting everyone else's time pretending it's a real project. It's not a proper environment to put contributors in.

He couldn't veto it anyway; by reading the entire thread, you'll see that the maintainer NACKed the request. After that, Greg KH stepped in (since he was soft asked to help earlier in the thread with an @) to reconfirm that what seems to be the general policy for r4l is followed (aka it'll be a separate file with its own maintainer), with the subtle implication that it would probably just get merged as a separate pat…

Put yourself in the shoes of the person submitting this patch. Is a "subtle implication" (and to be clear, it was a very subtle one if it was one at all) that a senior maintainers NAK on a patch is going to be ignored enough to make the whole situation not incredibly demoralizing?

Does it do much of anything to solve the fact they've publicly declared that they are going to do everything they can to stop the project, and that there's a history of them doing just that going on for years now?

Marcan's response clearly wasn't the most productive way to raise these issues, but the issues are there and are not being addressed.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#125

Post by nozzlegear »

ChocolateGod wrote: post #59
chippiewill wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor His reprimand is a clear signal that he won't tolerate brigading. Marcan was making a pretty blatant attempt at using social pressure to influence decisions.

People using Mastodon to promote pile-ons or brigading? No, never! That's actually one reason I don't use Mastodon, it's extremely common. Isn't this the guy that blocked HackerNews links to the Asahi Linux homepage because the moderators wouldn't do his bidding?

I don't know anything about him, but it seems like he has a pretty negative view of Reddit users as well:

> Added some clarifications in bold, because Reddit users having enough reading comprehension to understand what Christoph said and why it's exactly* what I described with other words is apparently a Lv.100 impossible challenge boss.*

https://web.archive.org/web/20250206022420/https://social.tr...

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#126

Post by zimpenfish »

busterarm wrote: post #108
Philpax wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I said opinions on a spectrum. Yes, an extreme end of that spectrum is an extreme response. This is something you have to put up with some amount of if you do work in public, just like if you were a public figure or celebrity. Being a kernel or even package maintainer is like being a politician. It sucks, but if your response is to cut off that channel of opinion _entirely_, that says more about you than the people y…

[flagged]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#127

Post by [deleted] »

mauricioc wrote: post #40
duxup wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Help me out here because I'm not sure how to navigate the submitted link https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/7/9 . Where is this reprimand / can it be seen?

https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSU... Edit: For further context for Linus's reply, there's http://web.archive.org/web/20250206022420/https://social.tre...

[deleted]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#128

Post by ho_schi »

trollied wrote: post #64

Linus replied: How about you accept the fact that maybe the problem is you. You think you know better. But the current process works. It has problems, but problems are a fact of life. There is no perfect. However, I will say that the social media brigading just makes me not want to have anything at all to do with your approach. Because if we have issues in the kernel development model, then social media sure as hell…

Context

I struggle to follow the LKML through the web-interface. LORE seems to provide a better view:

1. https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15...

Maintainer of DMA wants to keep the code clean and not mixing languages[1]. And tries to avoid dangerous offers like "we will maintain it for you".[2]

2. https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15...

Somebody references social media posts.

3. https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15...

    If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas.
4. https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/a869236a-1d59-4524-a86b-be08a15...

Torvalds reaction.

My impression, while still struggling to follow the message flow:

I think social media and shaming are harmful and understand the reaction of Torvalds. The position of the DMA maintainer seems also to make sense for me, to keep code maintainable over decades it must remain in a nice and tidy state. That is the hard work.

PS: I want to avoid actual names of persons.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#129

Post by mid-kid »

naasking wrote: post #22
nubinetwork wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I never submitted a patch personally, I had once conferred with some of the input devs to add a trackpad to the synaptics driver... they were queueing up an update to add other trackpads, and they said they would add mine... 5 years later, it's still not there. It was just a one-liner, and I'm not really sure why it never got added... On the other hand, I once ran into an issue with uboot where a bad update kno…

> 5 years later, it's still not there. It was just a one-liner, and I'm not really sure why it never got added. I think they expect people who want things to advocate harder than just mentioning it once. If no one brings it up again, then they assume that no one cares.

why bother infering such intent when the obvious answer - that they simply forgot about it with no ill intentions - is right there?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#130

Post by p_l »

pjmlp wrote: post #91
threatofrain wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps C is here to stay and that is the way Linux should live and naturally die. That's what's being proposed here by the guy who opposes multi-language projects.

Most UNIX systems that were not implemented in C, and thus lacked the symbiotic relationship, never survived in the market, sadly. There have been UNIX systems implemented, Pascal, Ada, Modula-2, Modula-3, as the most relevant ones. All gone. Also note that POSIX/UNIX certification requires a C compiler presence.

Linux kernel is also one of the few that do not use C ABI as entry point for user programs at all.

As for C compiler presence in POSIX, only existence of C-accessible APIs with specific structure are mandated, C compiler is optional just like Fortran runtime and compiler are.

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