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Is the Job Market Dying?

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Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#121

Post by nytesky »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #113
nytesky wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting you don’t mention a huge option that opened up after 2001 — govt/defense work. There was a huge ramp up in military spending in the 2000s and it was still “tech” work, albeit often of the more “move slow, change incrementally” variety.

I worked a decade in the DoD, and then another decade in various tech companies. I was laid off from a startup 12 months ago. There are definitely pros and cons of both sides. Here's my take on working for the DoD: - PRO: Having a long tenure means you really get to know the software systems you're developing, and the people with whom you're collaborating. - PRO: Lack of commercial / profit pressure lets you focus on…

How did you transition from govt work back into tech. Ive made some efforts but never seem to be able to bridge it.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#122

Post by CoastalCoder »

riku_iki wrote: post #45

Is there a route for high skilled engineer for going through this mess? Say, I am happy and confident to do all your leetcode/homework assignments + 8h interviews, but I want to be also top candidate as result.

> Say, I am happy and confident to do all your leetcode/homework assignments + 8h interviews, but I want to be also top candidate as result.

Perhaps not a 100% guaranteed one. Some interviewers just do a bad job.

For example, in some of my recent interviews, the (always young) interviewer posed brainteaser questions that have approximately nothing to do with the skillset and knowledge that the job requires.

I'm sure those questions are good for identifying candidates with very high IQ and/or familiarity with that particular puzzle. But as a very experienced developer, it really pisses me off to be passed over because I didn't answer those to the interviewer's satisfaction.

Long story short: interviewing well is a skill, and as a candidate you can't guarantee a good interviewer.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#123

Post by riku_iki »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #122
riku_iki wrote: post #45

Is there a route for high skilled engineer for going through this mess? Say, I am happy and confident to do all your leetcode/homework assignments + 8h interviews, but I want to be also top candidate as result.

> Say, I am happy and confident to do all your leetcode/homework assignments + 8h interviews, but I want to be also top candidate as result. Perhaps not a 100% guaranteed one. Some interviewers just do a bad job. For example, in some of my recent interviews, the (always young) interviewer posed brainteaser questions that have approximately nothing to do with the skillset and knowledge that the job requires. I'm sure…

> But as a very experienced developer, it really pisses me off

as very experienced developer, should it be part of your skillset to deal with all kinds of people in the group efficiently and achieve your goal?

As future employee you can't guarantee perfect coworkers..

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#124

Post by ransom1538 »

noirbot wrote: post #112
acdha wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that’s a bit harsh – but only so much, as I’ve had to explain basic stats literacy to several consultants – but there’s a common factor to many “AI” initiatives: some executives really want to be able to tell their buddies that they’re doing amazing things, and often believe there are huge untapped opportunities to make or save money which all of the employees they don’t trust haven’t mentioned. In reality, o…

It's definitely harsh, and I want to be clear that I don't think it's innately a bad idea or destined to fail, but when it's easy to throw millions of dollars at a moon shot, trying to spin data straw into gold is worth a shot. It's similar to people trying to make a self-driving car, and how many of those are struggling/ending recently. It's not that there's nothing there, but when loans aren't free, you can't just…

Eh. The real elephant in the room with "ML and Data Science" is checks and balances. They take over as the eyes of the company. Guess what department is seen as kicking ass? Guess which department is getting most money? Most hires? Data. Data.

It's like having the local police department check on the local police department.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#125

Post by CoastalCoder »

riku_iki wrote: post #123
CoastalCoder wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Say, I am happy and confident to do all your leetcode/homework assignments + 8h interviews, but I want to be also top candidate as result. Perhaps not a 100% guaranteed one. Some interviewers just do a bad job. For example, in some of my recent interviews, the (always young) interviewer posed brainteaser questions that have approximately nothing to do with the skillset and knowledge that the job requires. I'm sure…

> But as a very experienced developer, it really pisses me off as very experienced developer, should it be part of your skillset to deal with all kinds of people in the group efficiently and achieve your goal? As future employee you can't guarantee perfect coworkers..

> as very experienced developer, should it be part of your skillset to deal with all kinds of people in the group efficiently and achieve your goal?

If you know of a way to convince a 20-something interviewer, during the interview, that the puzzle they picked isn't a good way to winnow down the list of candidates, I'm all ears.

Dealing with people is absolutely a good skill for senior developers. But there are limits to how much interview nuttiness can be overcome by mere mortals.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#126

Post by CoastalCoder »

nytesky wrote: post #121
CoastalCoder wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked a decade in the DoD, and then another decade in various tech companies. I was laid off from a startup 12 months ago. There are definitely pros and cons of both sides. Here's my take on working for the DoD: - PRO: Having a long tenure means you really get to know the software systems you're developing, and the people with whom you're collaborating. - PRO: Lack of commercial / profit pressure lets you focus on…

How did you transition from govt work back into tech. Ive made some efforts but never seem to be able to bridge it.

> How did you transition from govt work back into tech. Ive made some efforts but never seem to be able to bridge it.

Probably a combination of factors:

- I finished my PhD in computer science shortly before looking for work outside the DoD, and that probably lent me some credibility.

- I'd had good success with several unclassified software projects while inside the DoD, and I was able to talk about them during the interviews.

- I put some effort into interview prep. E.g., I'd done very little with networking, so I brushed up on DNS, etc., before interviewing for a company that does internet stuff.

- Luck and timing. I'm sure there was some luck regarding which interviewers / hiring managers were interested in my resume.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#127

Post by mech422 »

zer00eyz wrote: post #104
nytesky wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sympathize with your perspective, when most programmers were really nerds was a magical time. I do wonder if we are indulging in an “eternal September” mindset though.

I have been theorizing that they all get FAANG jobs now. Free everything, stock options, good pay.... Crush the competition before it gets its feet under it. It isnt that we dont have as many nerds, they are all just "locked up".

I sometimes think FAANGs select for that group... Basically, all they have to offer is the paycheck. Outside of a few 'interesting' departments, most FAANG stuff seems to be the same sort of work you'd get in any other industry. And they make sure to run you thru a gauntlet of interviews for the positions.

I think a lot of the "lifelong geek" crowd just finds more 'interesting' work (for whatever qualifies as 'interesting' to them...) in other companies without jumping thru all the hoops (and for less pay, of course). Lots of startups, niche companies, etc offer challenges that can make up for the lower pay.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#128

Post by ohyes »

ZoomerCretin wrote: post #83
ohyes wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have sent exactly 3 applications in my career and been hired 4 times.

Then you're either not American, very well-connected, or you graduated during a bull market and always had the "right" amount of experience.

American, not well connected, graduated right after the housing market crash, so I suppose it could be the last one.

I don’t quite believe it myself (with people proffering 500 applications just to get one position) but I had a similar experience with online dating where my success rate was probably about 50% getting a positive response (and everyone seemed to bemoan their inability to get anyone to even talk to them).

Maybe this is just luck but I’ve also never been trying to work for google/microsoft/amazon.

I don’t consider myself particularly bright so I’m definitely not Carmack, and I’ve never seen the fabled 300-500k engineering positions, so my salary has been pretty modest for the duration of my career (always been comfortable but, well-maintained Honda civic money not Mercedes money). I just kind of try to make myself useful wherever I go.

When I apply for a job it has either been because a recruiter or former coworker asked me to, or because I was interested in what the company was working on, or both. I don’t go for jobs where I’m expected to performatively solve leetcode problems.

I get nervous around new people but I can get through a technical interview by knowing my stuff. I’m not particularly charismatic or anything.

Maybe I’m just lucky with target selection? I’ve always been about quality over quantity. I’m reasonably good at writing but nothing special.

It could be a sample size issue, my number of applications is not statistically significant compared to the overall market during the last 20 years or whatever.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#129

Post by ohyes »

ryandrake wrote: post #95
ZoomerCretin wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you're either not American, very well-connected, or you graduated during a bull market and always had the "right" amount of experience.

The only way I can even imagine this to be possible is 1. Your name is John Carmack or Ken Thompson or 2. You send your application out at the top of every single hiring bubble in history. Sorry, but I almost just don’t believe OP. It seems totally ridiculous and opposite to my lived experience over decades. Ive probably sent roughly 500 resumes out over a 25 year career and got 5 job offers. Never even two simultane…

I’m willing to believe my experience is a statistical outlier and I’m definitely not looking forward to the next time I need to look for a job.
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