Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row • Hacker News Board

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#121

Post by Avamander » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 12:44 PM UTC

realjhol wrote: post #102

ben_w wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have been proven correct about every single one of these things No, you haven't. > natural immunity would provide far greater protection false > vaccines wouldn't prevent transmission, carried a non-zero risk of side effects "Prevent" and "non-zero" are weasel words, that sentence as written is true of literally every treatment and prophylactic in existence forever . But it does reduce the risk of transmission e…

>> natural immunity would provide far greater protection > false True: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2203965 > vaccines wouldn't prevent transmission, The vaccines were never tested to prevent transmission: https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2022/10/12/pfizer-vaccine-not-tes... -- and indeed they do not prevent transmission, or infection for that matter. Many many people, from Joe Biden to my own mother have be…

> The vaccines were never tested to prevent transmission

Because it's an inevitable thing when people are less ill. It's dishonest to demand testing something like "people coughing less spread less" and then use that to pad the rest of your weak arguments with that - like the last sentence about efficacy (straight after the anecdotal).

> Sweden never locked down, and their outcomes were better than most of the rest of Europe

Emphasis on the "were".

> Scarecly anyone wore the kind of mask that could possibly make any difference. It was security theatre to calm the masses. All a cloth mask does is redirect your breathe out the sides. It doesn't filter anything.

Whose fault is that when the good practices could have been followed but were not? Should have beaten them with a baton? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

> I hope they have, because it help further fortify their natural immunity.

Yikes. The old adage about "what doesn't kill you" should end with "leaves scars" as it's definitely not so cut and dry to only "make you stronger".

> Over and over the claims of the expert class have been proven wrong. They claimed to know things that they couldn't possibly have known, and continue to lie and deflect to this day.

They have been far less wrong than the rest. That is how the process is supposed to work - new evidence comes to light, opinion changes. It's not an ancient belief system based on a book. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of science to expect random sentences (where most nuance has been filtered out from) to be irrevocably true.

There are going to be improvements, better ways to apply the same principles, changes in the underlying assessments, things change. Framing it as the reason why some opposing stance is correct is extremely dishonest and grossly wrong.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#122

Post by rayiner » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 12:45 PM UTC

ImaCake wrote: post #115

fidgewidge wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is such a frustrating comment to read. There is plenty of debate in public health about what is and isn’t appropriate. A lot of effort is put into communicating the often confusing and oblique conclusions of biology in such a way that people will understand and also be willing to take actions that will help themselves. Covid was, predictably, a massive defeat for public health. Also, you may have noticed that th…

> This is such a frustrating comment to read. There is plenty of debate in public health about what is and isn’t appropriate.

Ordinarily. My dad and most of his friends are in the field, and they’re all smart, thoughtful people who tackle incredibly complex things like how to get third world villagers to use maternal health services when all they’ve ever known is midwives with no formal medical training. But they all somehow turned their brains off when COVID happened and started acting like parrots. And now they’re paying the price for that in terms of public trust.

The public trust of lay people in experts of all stripes rests on following established processes and norms. When experts deviate from those, such as by concededly lying to the public about mask effectiveness, public trust evaporates. There is never any excuse that justifies that. When judges and prosecutors and police cut corners on process “because lives are at stake” large swaths of the public rightfully come to distrust the system. The same is true for public health or any other field.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#123

Post by SangareEel » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 12:45 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #108

nnx wrote: post #31

This is really sad as it will probably cause unnecessary children deaths down the road. I think public health authorities have serious soul-searching to do, this outcome was clearly warned upon by a lot of doctors and paediatricians who seen first hand parents not understanding why those authorities were pushing so hard novel mrna covid-19 vaccines on healthy children that were basically not at risk from this disease…

No, it is fault of those who push against vaccines super hard for political reasons. It is absurd to blame anyone else at the point where we are. There are groups who are intentionally trying to convince people to not vaccinate. When people listen to them, it is theor fault.

[flagged]

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#124

Post by 1123581321 » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 12:48 PM UTC

knaik94 wrote: post #66

lolinder wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a parent with a very specific kind of mindset about who should be the ultimate authority on their child. I think this may be your problem: you don't perceive the parent as the ultimate authority on the child. As a tutor, you fill a strictly advisory role, not a position of authority, and even your advisory role is limited in scope. If you try to exert authority or influence outside of that scope then yes, y…

I completely understand that the parents are the ultimate authority. I feel like I was in a position where I could have done more. I can't imagine how many times a teacher must feel the same throughout their years of teaching. I feel a lot of empathy for the child since I can relate. But that might make me more impatient about certain things than I would like to admit. The specific situation I am thinking of is when…

Walk through the potential accommodations and what the parents should look for as evidence that they are helpful. If there’s an opportunity to take a low risk step like having the parents meet with a specialist at the school up front, it would help them become more comfortable.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#125

Post by knaik94 » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 12:49 PM UTC

danenania wrote: post #107

knaik94 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a diagnosis. Their teachers suspected a diagnosis and the child was tested. The child would benefit from treatment. The parents were asking for my opinion. As a tutor, I would be one of the first people that would know if a student is struggling and needs testing for a learning disorder. These situations I am talking about are specifically when the parent is clearly choosing to disregard information because th…

Fyi, speaking as a parent: as it relates to ADHD and giving young children powerful psychoactive drugs, the fact that you only seem aware of one side of an extremely complex and contentious issue makes me disinterested in your advice on this or any other parenting topic. The kinds of people I look to for advice understand the arguments on both sides and, while they may have a position one way or the other, are not ze…

As someone that has a diagnosis and takes medication for it and and an educator, I understand better than most both sides of the situation. I apologize if it seems like I don't understand both sides. In asian culture there is still a very very strong stigma surrounding treatment for mental health issues. Sometimes hesitancy is cultural and other times it's religious and other times it's pride. My own struggles growing up in a similar situation as the child and learning that I suffered unecessarily after I started medication, affects the language I use to describe the situation. Maybe I have become more jaded than I realize, I appreciate your perspective.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#126

Post by hestefisk » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 12:49 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #14

hestefisk wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parents have a responsibility of best interest for their children. Not vaccinating them so they can die from chicken pox is unforgivable, sorry.

I'm pro vaccines, but chicken pox isn't a great choice for making a rhetorical point. It's the least dangerous illness of the standard childhood vaccines, and was added recently enough that even millennials just lived with it (the vaccine became available in the US in 1995). Measles and polio are the ones I'd emphasize, not chicken pox.

Fair enough. Polio is a better example. Either way, you get the gist.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#127

Post by hestefisk » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 12:50 PM UTC

phpisthebest wrote: post #11

hestefisk wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parents have a responsibility of best interest for their children. Not vaccinating them so they can die from chicken pox is unforgivable, sorry.

Government agencies have a responsibility not to lie to the public to achieve what they think is a "greater good". The have a responsibility not to just change the definition of words like vaccine to fit their political goals The failure here is not parents it is every single person in power and every single spineless person that unquestionably was regurgitating the dracionian narratives of those in power the last 2+…

What lies, specifically?

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#128

Post by NhanH » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 12:51 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #96

NhanH wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So “lived experience” matters until it is against the dogma. Sharing personal story likes this is the reason the internet being a wonderful place. It should always be recommended as long as it is truthful, and doesn’t involve explicit agenda of spamming out other experience or information.

That's not what I said. > It should always be recommended as long as it is truthful, That's the point. You never know.

Your argument makes no sense unless you are claiming the GP is lying.

The sharer should always be truthful. But also the reader should assume things might not be as it seems, trying to verify it on their own. But that is different than recommending everyone to not share anything.

There are two separate recommendations to be made: one for the writer, and one for the reader.

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#129

Post by SangareEel » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 12:51 PM UTC

ImaCake wrote: post #120

SangareEel wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Pretty sure this is just a racist comment. A quick look at the demographics data for Australia shows it to be overwhelmingly white european - even if we restrict ourselves to the White Australia Policy definitions.

Please capitalise White European

Re: Routine vaccinations drop among U.S. kindergartners for the third year in a row

#130

Post by fidgewidge » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 12:51 PM UTC

ImaCake wrote: post #115

fidgewidge wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is such a frustrating comment to read. There is plenty of debate in public health about what is and isn’t appropriate. A lot of effort is put into communicating the often confusing and oblique conclusions of biology in such a way that people will understand and also be willing to take actions that will help themselves. Covid was, predictably, a massive defeat for public health. Also, you may have noticed that th…

There are still restrictions. I named a big one in the comment already. Biden admin just extended the ban on foreign arrivals based on vaccine status for more months so gotta assume the ban will last until the Dems next lose the White House. That's a ban on a big fraction of the population of most countries. Other countries don't do that because it's pointless but still have some restrictions like mandatory masks in some contexts in Germany.

During COVID I compared claims made by public health officials to the actual data their own agencies were publishing and so often they didn't match. Not just my perception. I have a friend, at the start of it all we often argued because I had already realized public health was corrupt, but he hadn't. I dropped the topic rather than try to convince him. Some months later we were drinking and he told me his views had changed, was now hard-core skeptical about it all. Changed because he did the same as me, watched a press conference by the government, got curious about something, went to the websites with that data and downloaded it. Found they didn't line up, that the government scientists and health minister were lying about what the numbers said. Then he admitted he'd been wrong to argue with me about it.

Lots of people had experiences like that. Public health communication trying to make us "willing to take actions that will help ourselves" was always whatever would sound convincing in the moment, not what was true. So it's all worthless.