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Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

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Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#121

Post by [deleted] »

manholio wrote: post #83
nabilhat wrote: post #62

This is a neat example though of how arbitrary EV drivetrains are. A Toyota marketing exec's (just guessing) FUD about imagined consumer FUD turns into, why don't we just ramp down torque in notches in relation to road speed increments? Of course anyone who buys this is going to try it once then leave it in all-the-torque-all-the-time mode, but that's not the point. I can't say I've met a single three pedal afficiona…

Electric engines are capable of insane torque, but prolonged operation in such a mode is far from efficient, cool and preferable from a reliability standpoint. Two seconds at the green light - yes, plowing your field with a Tesla - no. So I can see it making sense for vehicles that have have two modes of operation, for example a tractor or all-terain vehicle that also need to work on public roads at relatively high s…

[deleted]

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#122

Post by snovv_crash »

falcolas wrote: post #101
robryk wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In snowy conditions you don't actually want all the torque available: then you'd want to control the torque applied instead of the power delivered when starting to move (similar to placing a restriction on the top torque by shifting into second gear on manual shift cars).

Agreed, and I’d go so far to say you don’t want all the torque on anything but a clean racetrack. Rain, oil, gravel, animal carcasses… there’s plenty of road conditions where a lead foot plus extreme torque will carry you violently off the road.

Limiting torque is as simple as running the motor in current-control mode

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#123

Post by jpollock »

robryk wrote: post #88
nabilhat wrote: post #62

This is a neat example though of how arbitrary EV drivetrains are. A Toyota marketing exec's (just guessing) FUD about imagined consumer FUD turns into, why don't we just ramp down torque in notches in relation to road speed increments? Of course anyone who buys this is going to try it once then leave it in all-the-torque-all-the-time mode, but that's not the point. I can't say I've met a single three pedal afficiona…

In snowy conditions you don't actually want all the torque available: then you'd want to control the torque applied instead of the power delivered when starting to move (similar to placing a restriction on the top torque by shifting into second gear on manual shift cars).

I'm curious on the relative performance of traction control?

Isn't the goal of traction control to limit the power to the wheel?

Reading on how TCS works [1], it seems it applies the brake and may limit power from the engine?

[1] https://www.scienceabc.com/innovation/what-is-a-traction-con...

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#124

Post by jonathanlydall »

Someone1234 wrote: post #2

Seems very similar to paddle shifters in a gas CVT. There's no mechanical connection between the "clutch peddle" and "shifter" to the actual transmission, it is all just fed into a computer and a simulation is created to give the driver a warm fizzy feeling. If this makes people feel better during the transitional phase, I guess that counts for something, but this is a manual car simulation only.

I don’t see the point for EVs, but I actually somewhat regularly use the “gear down” paddle on my Honda Jazz (AKA Fit in other countries) CVT, but not for a “warm fizzy feeling”.

It actually “locks” the gears to a particular ratio which allows me to use the engine to keep the car from exceeding a particular speed when coasting down a hill. When I start using the accelerator after, it very quickly switches itself back to automatic as soon as the “locked in” gear ratio is clearly non-optimal.

I’ve never bothered using them for any other scenario though, I don’t see the point as the CVT (at least on my car) very intuitively adjusts gear ratio based on how far I’ve pushed in the accelerator, it’s such a pleasure to drive.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#125

Post by bcrosby95 »

bluejekyll wrote: post #111
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a branding screw up) To be fair, the Charger name was created long before it meant "thing you use to plug into an electric device", and the Charger is a very popular vehicle in the Dodge lineup. And you don't abandon popular models without generating negative PR. So Dodge didn't really have a choice. Plus, they can use the pun in witty commercials.

They killed the Charger brand in 1987, then reintroduced it in 2006. Fast cars are dangerous on our streets and responsible for a significant number of deaths on the road. It wouldn’t be bad if they killed the brand for society. It’s too bad that “car that gets you great mileage and helps protect kids in driveways and crosswalks” doesn’t sell.

> It’s too bad that “car that gets you great mileage and helps protect kids in driveways and crosswalks” doesn’t sell.

We lost that battle 20+ years ago, when SUVs and giant trucks became so popular.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#126

Post by bryanlarsen »

flyingfences wrote: post #93
SilverBirch wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about control. Transmissions in cars existed because internal combustion engines have a torque curve - the amount of torque you can get out of an engine varies with the engine speed, and so in order to maximize the torque at any given road speed you need to match the current road speed with the engine speed that produces peak torque. Now, there were different ways of doing this - manual transmissions vs semi…

It is about the feeling of control now. The reason people who still choose manuals do so isn't because of the torque curves -- automatics are now better at handling that -- it's because they like the feeling.

When you're used to a manual, an automatic feels mushy. An EV is directly coupled, so adding a manual transmission makes it more must, rather than less.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#127

Post by bearjaws »

robryk wrote: post #88
nabilhat wrote: post #62

This is a neat example though of how arbitrary EV drivetrains are. A Toyota marketing exec's (just guessing) FUD about imagined consumer FUD turns into, why don't we just ramp down torque in notches in relation to road speed increments? Of course anyone who buys this is going to try it once then leave it in all-the-torque-all-the-time mode, but that's not the point. I can't say I've met a single three pedal afficiona…

In snowy conditions you don't actually want all the torque available: then you'd want to control the torque applied instead of the power delivered when starting to move (similar to placing a restriction on the top torque by shifting into second gear on manual shift cars).

At least in a Tesla it will automatically dial torque down when slip is detected. It accomplishes this via lowering amperage to the motor, it also can adjust wheel spin using individual wheel braking.

All of this is already working fine with no transmission... Adding one to a consumer EV for snowy conditions is a step backwards in terms of more stuff to break and maintain.

I believe this makes more sense for heavy equipment and freight trucks. You wouldn't want to have the gear ratio for heavy load all the time, as it would require the motor to spin at high RPMs (inefficient) to maintain highway speeds even when the amount of torque required is low.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#128

Post by aidenn0 »

falcor84 wrote: post #70
aidenn0 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with zero sense of time, analog clocks let me use my spatial reasoning to reason about time. I am much more aware of how much time I'm spending on something with an analog clock

You piqued my curiousity here - do you mean you would think to yourself something along the lines of "I have until the minute hand goes 60 degrees further than it is now" as opposed to "I have 10 more minutes"?

Pretty much what claudiawerner said in the sibling comment.

When I used to drink coffee, I took sugar in it. Sugar in diners often came in a dispenser[1]. I could tell when I had the right amount of sugar poured in from one of these even though it might clump on a humid day and pour freely on a dry day. With an analog watch, I can do this for time, but with a digital I cannot.

A digital watch requires much more conscious thought; if I log all my activities and make a spreadsheet &c. I can calculate a range of time it will take me for all my tasks, but with an analog watch I can just intuit it. To some personality types doing all of this seems to be enjoyable, but it's quite painful for me.

1: Like this: https://rapidswholesale.com/browne-halco-12-oz-sugar-pourer....

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#129

Post by poutine »

kaitai wrote: post #106
robryk wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In snowy conditions you don't actually want all the torque available: then you'd want to control the torque applied instead of the power delivered when starting to move (similar to placing a restriction on the top torque by shifting into second gear on manual shift cars).

That's why I stick with a manual transmission -- far better handling in snow. Have not asked my EV peers how it's working for them.

As a former driver of many Audi quattros and a Canadian who lives on top of a hill with a AWD Tesla 3 I can say it's the best handling car in snow that I've driven (given clearance limits of a sedan).

The instant reaction speed of its electric traction control to slippage will vastly outperform any manual transmission. You can drive like an idiot with the pedal to the floor and the car sorts itself out.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#130

Post by guenthert »

badcppdev wrote: post #50
lm28469 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road? Getting rid of 50% of your car detecting senses doesn't seem like a good idea

Or imagine if you're blind. Trying to listen for tire noise.

Even with regular gas powered cars, the tyre noise dominates for a long time already, except at very low speed. A Tesla isn't much more quiet than any other modern sedan (thanks to wide tyres with soft rubbers). It's really just (wannabe) sports cars, old trucks and god damn Harleys where it's different.
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