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A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

theguardian.com

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Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#121

Post by bombcar »

joe_guy wrote: post #89
vogt wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. As there is a sales office at a livestock auction who are paid by buyers expecting to take delivery of livestock they just paid for, a third party is involved. So it is not as cut and dry as “never mind, I’ll just give you your money back.”

What happens if a wolf killed the goat? Surely they wouldn't be unconditionally criminal at that point. Perhaps the third party needs to be made whole, also. IANAL but paying off contracts is extremely common.

failing to perform because of an action you took is different than failing to perform because of an action someone else (or nature) took.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#122

Post by zmgsabst »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #90
zmgsabst wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re projecting hard. My niece happily eats the chicken she helped raise and watched be slaughtered and butchered. I also knew where meat came from as a child and that didn’t bother me. These grand moralistic pronouncements don’t seem true… and ignore that carrying them out would be the death of 35M cattle, 500M chickens, etc. A near total devastation of their species, who primarily exist as our food source. Should…

That's why I didn't say all kids - of course there are exceptions. And your example is not how most of us get animal meat. Kids in cities don't have a garden where they can raise their own chickens. I'm talking about the realities of factory farming and slaughterhouses - where animals lead a miserable life. And where did I say we should kill all remaining farm animals? Of course it would be a transition away from lar…

> And where did I say we should kill all remaining farm animals?

Right here:

> Why kill and enslave animals if we don't need to?

Where do you think the animals go, if we stop using them for food?

You come across as demanding we cull our food herds, without replacing them — and then justifying it by saying that an animal wouldn’t want to be a burger… apparently saying they’d rather their species be annihilated entirely.

I’d rather have a harsh life than no life — why would I assume the opposite about animals?

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#123

Post by choko »

david38 wrote: post #102
vogt wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parents were the ones who confiscated someone else’s property when the goat was sold. But yeah, I agree, they do, you’re barking up the wrong tree if you think you’re going to stick it to me with ACAB sentiment because I am no fan of the state or police. I am a fan of honoring contracts and sales.

So if I get your six year old daughter to sell me all her toys for 100 $1 bills, you would be ok with that?

The kid didn't enter into the deal independently since children don't have that kind of autonomy. Your comparison is invalid.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#124

Post by choko »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #8

I feel for this little girl - for losing her friend. I think if more parents would explain to kids where meat comes from most would react like Indie-Rose - another little kid[0] - who said: "I don't want to chop up animal people" And there are so many more kids realizing on their own what they are eating. They don't want to eat Peppa the pig & friends and yet we (mostly) force them to eat them. And there are so many…

The phenomenon of children not knowing where their meat comes from is recent. For thousands of years, society was mostly agrarian. Children survived and were not traumatized. I suspect the downvotes you are seeing are due to people feeling like you are overstating your case, being somewhat dramatic, and a little off topic.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#125

Post by choko »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #117
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should a sentient being be regarded as property? If these parents were raising awareness for a pets’ right law, I’d be far more sympathetic. They aren’t. It’s also unclear what the ramifications would be if livestock someone else has bought can be poofed into a pet at the previous owner’s insistence.

It was a more generic question. Should a sentient being like a goat or a pig who passes the mirror test and is regarded to have the intelligence of a 2-3 year old child… should those animals be regarded as property, be exploited, made to suffer and their life taken away against their will? Even if we humans don’t need to exploit these animals anymore for our survival? We have the technology and knowhow to feed oursel…

Yes. Animals are tools and can be regarded as property. I do support regulations in how animals should be raised and treated, but regarding them on the same level as humans is fallacy. I've seen your evidence and it has failed to change my mind. Especially since a vegan diet isn't suitable or healthy for everyone. If it works for you, great. Follow your heart.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#126

Post by choko »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #52
nashashmi wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You premise is kids don't want to eat animals but we force them to eat it. And they don't realize what that is.

My premise is that if we showed kids the realities of slaughterhouses and the impact that animal farming has on our biosphere and all the other externalities - I believe most would not want to support this. Imagine we had a children's book that would convey these facts in a manner kids understand more easily. And yet we hide these facts from children and we tell them to eat meat and drink milk because they need it fo…

This is called moving the goalposts. You could just as easily advocate for more humane slaughter house conditions but you are instead using bad actors (claiming this is how ALL animals are slaughtered) to call for a vegan lifestyle.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#128

Post by uxcolumbo »

choko wrote: post #125
uxcolumbo wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a more generic question. Should a sentient being like a goat or a pig who passes the mirror test and is regarded to have the intelligence of a 2-3 year old child… should those animals be regarded as property, be exploited, made to suffer and their life taken away against their will? Even if we humans don’t need to exploit these animals anymore for our survival? We have the technology and knowhow to feed oursel…

Yes. Animals are tools and can be regarded as property. I do support regulations in how animals should be raised and treated, but regarding them on the same level as humans is fallacy. I've seen your evidence and it has failed to change my mind. Especially since a vegan diet isn't suitable or healthy for everyone. If it works for you, great. Follow your heart.

In your view - what makes an animal property? Is it OK to make your property suffer and kill it? And if so, why?

And where did I say animals should be regarded the same as humans?

The point is animals can suffer and they avoid pain if they can - just like we do. They seek happiness and safety - just like we do. Yet we breed them in the billions and put them in horrible living conditions just so we can have burger.

It has nothing to do with following your heart. It's following science that tells us feeding the world with animal meat is not sustainable. It's about not supporting an industry that creates immense suffering and environmental destruction.

And a plant based diet is healthy [0][1] and we have the technology to create healthier and more sustainable protein sources than factory farming animals.

[0] A community of over 17,000 physicians proving you otherwise: https://www.pcrm.org/about-us

[1] Athletes thriving on a plant-based diet: https://gamechangersmovie.com/

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#129

Post by uxcolumbo »

zmgsabst wrote: post #122
uxcolumbo wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I didn't say all kids - of course there are exceptions. And your example is not how most of us get animal meat. Kids in cities don't have a garden where they can raise their own chickens. I'm talking about the realities of factory farming and slaughterhouses - where animals lead a miserable life. And where did I say we should kill all remaining farm animals? Of course it would be a transition away from lar…

> And where did I say we should kill all remaining farm animals? Right here: > Why kill and enslave animals if we don't need to? Where do you think the animals go, if we stop using them for food? You come across as demanding we cull our food herds, without replacing them — and then justifying it by saying that an animal wouldn’t want to be a burger… apparently saying they’d rather their species be annihilated entirel…

I think you misunderstood that sentence.

Of course things wouldn't change over night. But if more people chose not to consume factory farm animal products - the demand would go down over time and we would not breed as many anymore.

It would be a slow phasing out and a transition to more sustainable food sources.

> I’d rather have a harsh life than no life

Please watch Earthlings[0] - the documentary about the factory farm industry and how animals live. Tell me you would want to live under those conditions. And no - those are not isolated, it's the reality for factory farm animals.

Those cows, chickens and pigs in factory farms are not wild species anymore. We bred them to the point where we maximized their meat or egg production at the expense of their health, e.g. chickens grow so large they can't stand on their own legs anymore.

And we have many sanctuaries now - where farm animals are being rescued and they can live to their natural end, so they would continue to exist.

So if you had the choice - what would you choose for yourself:

1) Not be born

2) Be born into a system where you will suffer and lead a horrible life and at the end you will be slaughtered just because someone wants a burger.

[0] https://www.nationearth.com/

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#130

Post by hshsuzhbs »

zmgsabst wrote: post #78
uxcolumbo wrote: post #8

I feel for this little girl - for losing her friend. I think if more parents would explain to kids where meat comes from most would react like Indie-Rose - another little kid[0] - who said: "I don't want to chop up animal people" And there are so many more kids realizing on their own what they are eating. They don't want to eat Peppa the pig & friends and yet we (mostly) force them to eat them. And there are so many…

You’re projecting hard. My niece happily eats the chicken she helped raise and watched be slaughtered and butchered. I also knew where meat came from as a child and that didn’t bother me. These grand moralistic pronouncements don’t seem true… and ignore that carrying them out would be the death of 35M cattle, 500M chickens, etc. A near total devastation of their species, who primarily exist as our food source. Should…

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