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A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

theguardian.com

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Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#111

Post by Beltalowda »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #57
Beltalowda wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s also baffling the parents didn’t try to buy the goat off the purchaser I think they did? That's how I read "Long offered to “pay back” the fair for the loss of Cedar’s income" anyway.

> Long offered to “pay back” the fair for the loss of Cedar’s income It wasn’t the Fair’s property. It was the purchaser’s. The loss of income wasn’t the point. The property interest was.

Oh okay, I think I don't fully understand how all of this works.

Either way, regardless of the legality of the matter, I don't think you should confuse "the legal thing to do" with "the moral thing to do". They are not always identical.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#113

Post by superchroma »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #106
superchroma wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are careless and stupid. I am extremely grateful for all the times people have gone out of their way to accommodate my failures and shortcomings. The world would be a much grimmer place if we all went through it without being flexible in any way. I think endorsing that style of operating is a cultural sickness; fighting to suppress some of the best qualities we have as a race.

> world would be a much grimmer place if we all went through it without being flexible in any way I believe there should have been leeway. But remedy under the law? The parents are suing. They aren’t advocating for a bill providing for pets’ rights. They aren’t raising money for a shelter. They’re litigating on scarce technicalities in civil procedure in pursuit of a payout and possibly vengeance, the end result of w…

I wasn't talking about the lawsuit. I am not interested in the lawsuit.

Since you wish to dwell on the mundane, however:

You can throw a tantrum for any reason you like. It is your god-given right as a human to throw a tantrum, and it is constitutionally protected, to boot. Additionally, you can sue any american for any legally based reason you can think of. That is also a legal right afforded to you. You have a right to seek remedy under law for legal matters if you feel so inclined. It is additionally your right to not advocate for pet's rights. It is lastly your right to not raise money for a shelter.

Victim blaming and then going on to expect a victim to arbitrarily perform moral penance to your standards in lieu of seeking restitution is a bizarre position. The courts will promptly resolve this business in due course and in concert with lawyers will bill the victim accordingly for the cost of their use.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#114

Post by kurupt213 »

Hizonner wrote: post #67
kurupt213 wrote: post #18

So the parents failed at providing the 4-H experience. Selling the livestock is a vital part of the program. But this sounds like there was a contract that the parents were attempting to back out of…because the girl threw a tantrum. It’s ok to ask, but offering to pay the value of the goat doesn’t mean they have to accept the payment and void the contract.

There was no contract. It "sounds" to you like there was a contract because that's what you want to believe. The article doesn't say there was a contract, and the complaint goes into considerable detail about how (a) there was no contract, (b) if there had been a contract, she would have had the right to rescind it. Also, fuck the 4-H experience...

4-H teaches responsibility and the realities of life and the food chain. It’s definitely doesn’t warrant such a negative response, even if you have chosen to be vegan.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#115

Post by archagon »

411111111111111 wrote: post #2

How does America have such an abundance of police which behave in such an obviously morally corrupt manner? In most nations the police makes at least a token effort to appear trustworthy for plausible deniability. From the states you get weekly reports that are so outlandishly bad that you almost can't believe it. Really strange as a bystander.

And it’s looking like it’s going to get so much worse. Check out this “Sheriffs Fellowship”: https://twitter.com/sifill_/status/1565036537179512832

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#116

Post by JumpCrisscross »

superchroma wrote: post #113
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> world would be a much grimmer place if we all went through it without being flexible in any way I believe there should have been leeway. But remedy under the law? The parents are suing. They aren’t advocating for a bill providing for pets’ rights. They aren’t raising money for a shelter. They’re litigating on scarce technicalities in civil procedure in pursuit of a payout and possibly vengeance, the end result of w…

I wasn't talking about the lawsuit. I am not interested in the lawsuit. Since you wish to dwell on the mundane, however: You can throw a tantrum for any reason you like. It is your god-given right as a human to throw a tantrum, and it is constitutionally protected, to boot. Additionally, you can sue any american for any legally based reason you can think of. That is also a legal right afforded to you. You have a righ…

Sure. They’re within their rights to be stupid. They’re still being stupid, and what happened to them happened because they went about it stupidly. They shouldn’t get an accommodation because of a string of stupid decisions, and they don’t deserve restitution. To the extent they do get restitution it will be because the fair and program didn’t spend enough on lawyers; now they will and the next person won’t.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#117

Post by uxcolumbo »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #107
uxcolumbo wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Property interest And that's the point. Should a sentient being be regarded as property?

> Should a sentient being be regarded as property? If these parents were raising awareness for a pets’ right law, I’d be far more sympathetic. They aren’t. It’s also unclear what the ramifications would be if livestock someone else has bought can be poofed into a pet at the previous owner’s insistence.

It was a more generic question.

Should a sentient being like a goat or a pig who passes the mirror test and is regarded to have the intelligence of a 2-3 year old child… should those animals be regarded as property, be exploited, made to suffer and their life taken away against their will? Even if we humans don’t need to exploit these animals anymore for our survival?

We have the technology and knowhow to feed ourselves more sustainably and without causing environmental destruction and suffering as we do now.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#118

Post by vogt »

superchroma wrote: post #79
vogt wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t mean to attack you here, but I feel like it isn’t fair to paint my side of the argument as one of non empathy. I wish that the Shasta Farm Association and the dickhead that made the purchase would have said “let’s let it go”. But they didn’t, and I don’t agree that some egregious civil rights violation happened as a result. That is simply my opinion.

No, not an egregious civil rights violation, but an everyday, mundane brand of evil. Rules, contracts and law were duly followed, and empathy didn't come into the picture. Someone with power could have paused and tried to find an alternative path, but they didn't. This reality exists in stark contrast to the one depicted in Hallmark and Disney films, but the sad part is how little effort separated this situation from…

Fair enough. I agree.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#119

Post by vogt »

david38 wrote: post #97
vogt wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except I’m not wrong: “On June 24, 2022, accompanied by Plaintiff Jessica, Plaintiff E.L. exhibited Cedar at Shasta District Fair in the junior livestock auction.” Since we’re making assumptions about each other apparently, I’ll assume you’re from San Fransisco or Toronto or some other urban center where livestock auctions aren’t common. So allow me to inform you that the purpose of a livestock auction is to bid on l…

I would be surprised if anyone was under the impression that the purpose of a livestock auction was … to raise pets?

Me too, which is why this whole incident and some of the posters here reaction to it is so strange. They never should have entered the goat into the 4H show.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#120

Post by [deleted] »

david38 wrote: post #96
vogt wrote: post #6

Look, I’m an animal lover and what a nightmare for that little girl, but I don’t think that her parents did her any favors by not preparing her mentally for what was to come. The animals being sold at auction is part and parcel of the 4H experience, or many families will opt to have the animal slaughtered themselves. It sounds like they brought this goat to auction where it was sold and then tried to re-neg on the sa…

It’s a goat. It’s a young child. Surely the world won’t stop because a minor doesn’t understand the full ramifications of a contract. Get off your high horse.

[deleted]
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