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A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

theguardian.com

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Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#51

Post by Hizonner »

vogt wrote: post #6

Look, I’m an animal lover and what a nightmare for that little girl, but I don’t think that her parents did her any favors by not preparing her mentally for what was to come. The animals being sold at auction is part and parcel of the 4H experience, or many families will opt to have the animal slaughtered themselves. It sounds like they brought this goat to auction where it was sold and then tried to re-neg on the sa…

> It sounds like they brought this goat to auction where it was sold and then tried to re-neg on the sale.

Wrong.

You did not read the article closely, or you would not have made that assumption. Frankly you had no reason to make such an assumption even without reading it.

Complaint: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#52

Post by uxcolumbo »

nashashmi wrote: post #21
uxcolumbo wrote: post #8

I feel for this little girl - for losing her friend. I think if more parents would explain to kids where meat comes from most would react like Indie-Rose - another little kid[0] - who said: "I don't want to chop up animal people" And there are so many more kids realizing on their own what they are eating. They don't want to eat Peppa the pig & friends and yet we (mostly) force them to eat them. And there are so many…

You premise is kids don't want to eat animals but we force them to eat it. And they don't realize what that is.

My premise is that if we showed kids the realities of slaughterhouses and the impact that animal farming has on our biosphere and all the other externalities - I believe most would not want to support this.

Imagine we had a children's book that would convey these facts in a manner kids understand more easily.

And yet we hide these facts from children and we tell them to eat meat and drink milk because they need it for protein etc, even if they don't want to - happened to me and countless others (online reports).

Don't you think a child would get traumatized by the sight of a cow being shot in the head and being cut open and the guts falling out - sometimes the animal is still alive and its eyes are rolling. It's a horror show.

If a grown man (Mike Bisping - ex MMA fighter) couldn't last longer than 2 weeks working in a slaughterhouse because it's a madhouse - do you think children could stomach watching videos of that environment?

Slaughterhouse workers suffer from PTSD - some say they had to suppress their compassion to carry out the killing.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#53

Post by Hizonner »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #49
TimPC wrote: post #47

There are multiple property right violations here and the body of law is not all that clear. 4-H violated the parent’s property rights to the goat by proceeding with the auction against their will. At this point it becomes unclear who the legitimate owner of the property is, it may still be the parents as auctions of stolen property don’t make ownership legitimate. I think making the buyer of the goat financially who…

> 4-H violated the parent’s property rights to the goat by proceeding with the auction against their will 4-H programs typically loan a goat to a family to raise for the intention of teaching livestock husbandry. The goat is never legally the family’s property. (Not sure about this case.) EDIT: It appears this program involves purchasing the goat. Suing the police is still stupid. They were enforcing a purchase and s…

Wrong.

4-H (or somebody) sold her the goat, and in fact their rules required her to maintain legal ownership of the goat. You are making statments of "fact" without checking them.

Complaint: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#54

Post by vogt »

superchroma wrote: post #10
vogt wrote: post #6

Look, I’m an animal lover and what a nightmare for that little girl, but I don’t think that her parents did her any favors by not preparing her mentally for what was to come. The animals being sold at auction is part and parcel of the 4H experience, or many families will opt to have the animal slaughtered themselves. It sounds like they brought this goat to auction where it was sold and then tried to re-neg on the sa…

I think, in life, sometimes we just don't quite think things through. You're busy, preoccupied, whatever. You don't get all the facts and just assume the best. You get to the auction and realize your daughter loves the goat a lot. You don't spend all day in an analytical mode, anticipating the worst cases, and then things happen and it's then too late to act. It's like being careless where you park your nice car and…

I don’t mean to attack you here, but I feel like it isn’t fair to paint my side of the argument as one of non empathy. I wish that the Shasta Farm Association and the dickhead that made the purchase would have said “let’s let it go”. But they didn’t, and I don’t agree that some egregious civil rights violation happened as a result. That is simply my opinion.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#55

Post by Hizonner »

vogt wrote: post #9
411111111111111 wrote: post #2

How does America have such an abundance of police which behave in such an obviously morally corrupt manner? In most nations the police makes at least a token effort to appear trustworthy for plausible deniability. From the states you get weekly reports that are so outlandishly bad that you almost can't believe it. Really strange as a bystander.

The goat became property of the new owner when it was sold at auction, which the family knew they were getting into. I hate defending someone who clearly was being an asshole in this situation by not having the heart to say “This little girl is clearly attached, I can simply buy another goat”, but there were no rights being violated here that I see.

Wrong.

The auction was not legally conducted, there was no actual transfer of ownership, and in any case what the auction falsely represented to the buyer that it had the right to sell was some meat, not a goat. You are making "factual" assertions without bothering to check them.

Complaint: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#56

Post by [deleted] »

vogt wrote: post #54
superchroma wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, in life, sometimes we just don't quite think things through. You're busy, preoccupied, whatever. You don't get all the facts and just assume the best. You get to the auction and realize your daughter loves the goat a lot. You don't spend all day in an analytical mode, anticipating the worst cases, and then things happen and it's then too late to act. It's like being careless where you park your nice car and…

I don’t mean to attack you here, but I feel like it isn’t fair to paint my side of the argument as one of non empathy. I wish that the Shasta Farm Association and the dickhead that made the purchase would have said “let’s let it go”. But they didn’t, and I don’t agree that some egregious civil rights violation happened as a result. That is simply my opinion.

[deleted]

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#57

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Beltalowda wrote: post #41
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or we can advocate for change and try to be more patient, kind and accepting, and, I think, I would like to advocate the latter 4-H auctions finance the programme. If the auctions become unreliable because parents couldn’t bother to identify an attachment early and message their intent to renegotiate a contract until right before the auction, the programme is threatened. It’s also baffling the parents didn’t try to…

> It’s also baffling the parents didn’t try to buy the goat off the purchaser I think they did? That's how I read "Long offered to “pay back” the fair for the loss of Cedar’s income" anyway.

> Long offered to “pay back” the fair for the loss of Cedar’s income

It wasn’t the Fair’s property. It was the purchaser’s. The loss of income wasn’t the point. The property interest was.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#58

Post by krisoft »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #24
411111111111111 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, they probably had a previous agreement assuring the auction, but it wasn't the police's job to make that decision. They're the executive, not the judicative. A judge would've had to make this assertion, which clearly didn't happen as they didn't have a warrant. The officers still drove all over the state into a different jurisdiction (while using taxpayers money). They likely could've gotten the goat without ma…

> it wasn't the police's job to make that decision If my car is stolen and I see it in someone’s garage, I absolutely expect the police to do something about it. In this case, the facts about lawful ownership were straightforward.

> facts about lawful ownership were straightforward

Clearly not, otherwise we wouldn’t be reading about it in the news. This was a civil dispute. One party is of the opinion that they bought a goat and the other party is of the opinion that they haven’t sold it. This is where you need a court to decide who is right and who is wrong.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#59

Post by uxcolumbo »

batch12 wrote: post #43
uxcolumbo wrote: post #8

I feel for this little girl - for losing her friend. I think if more parents would explain to kids where meat comes from most would react like Indie-Rose - another little kid[0] - who said: "I don't want to chop up animal people" And there are so many more kids realizing on their own what they are eating. They don't want to eat Peppa the pig & friends and yet we (mostly) force them to eat them. And there are so many…

I think if we showed kids from a very young age the processing of animals they likely not be traumatized for life. It'd be normal for them. I do believe that people should know where their food comes from and how it's made. I don't have any concerns with teaching kids how to hunt, farm, and harvest livestock.

I'm not talking about hunting.

Most meat consumed on this planet comes from large scale animal farms, not from going out to the woods and hunting, like our ancestors did (who needed it to survive - most of us don't anymore).

I'm talking about this: https://www.nationearth.com/ - ask parents to show their kids this or just videos of factory slaughterhouses. Do you think most parents would say yes? Would they say yes to showing pictures / videos of places where workers suffer from PTSD?

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#60

Post by vogt »

Hizonner wrote: post #51
vogt wrote: post #6

Look, I’m an animal lover and what a nightmare for that little girl, but I don’t think that her parents did her any favors by not preparing her mentally for what was to come. The animals being sold at auction is part and parcel of the 4H experience, or many families will opt to have the animal slaughtered themselves. It sounds like they brought this goat to auction where it was sold and then tried to re-neg on the sa…

> It sounds like they brought this goat to auction where it was sold and then tried to re-neg on the sale. Wrong. You did not read the article closely, or you would not have made that assumption. Frankly you had no reason to make such an assumption even without reading it. Complaint: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf

Except I’m not wrong:

“On June 24, 2022, accompanied by Plaintiff Jessica, Plaintiff E.L. exhibited Cedar at Shasta District Fair in the junior livestock auction.”

Since we’re making assumptions about each other apparently, I’ll assume you’re from San Fransisco or Toronto or some other urban center where livestock auctions aren’t common. So allow me to inform you that the purpose of a livestock auction is to bid on livestock which most of the time will end up being bred or slaughtered.

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