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The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth

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Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth

#121

Post by stjohnswarts »

apostacy wrote: post #27
ismaildonmez wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erdoğan thinks himself as the last Ottoman Emperor standing (c.f. The Third Reich), that’s why no way in hell he’ll accept any atrocities that Ottomans committed.

Facebook has shown themselves completely willing to remove content at the request of the Erdoğan government. If they deplatform critics of Erdoğan, why would they also not be willing to deplatform anything else that Erdoğan does not like, like discussion of the Armenian Genocide? And maybe this is why we should consider the consequences of encouraging deplatforming of people we don't like. My other comment pointing o…

In these cases it's a choice to either be pragmatic or completely remove yourself from the country. Which would you choose as the best option for Turkish citizens in a similar position?

Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth

#122

Post by ismaildonmez »

belgesel wrote: post #117
ismaildonmez wrote: post #3

As a guy born in Turkey I’m happy that this is finally getting the recognition it deserves. On the other hand, finding any neutral resource about the First World War in Turkey is hard to come by. The best resource I’ve found so far is written by a German General called Otto Liman von Sanders, he wrote a book called “Five Years in Turkey” [0] talking about 1913 - 1918. It at least has some parts on the events which wi…

I want to know what will this recognition does to your own country both in short and long term. Will Turkey pay a fee for the genocide or will they have to just give up from Ağrı? This subject was always used against Turkey in political confrontations for years. Turkey has been better and stronger ally to USA. This recognition is nothing but a political warning against Erdoğan and his latest actions against USA and a…

> So why are you happy?

Because I don’t care if I come from country X, atrocities all around the world have been committed, and still being committed. People have to be responsible for this suffering, we shouldn’t be able to shout “Fake News!” to everything and get away with it.

Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth

#123

Post by luckylion »

bjourne wrote: post #104
HappyDreamer wrote: post #44

This hate is a bit present, still today. In Stockholm, Sweden, 5 years ago: "Death to the Armenian dogs", said B. Leylani, who was, back then, the vice president of the Turkish National Association of Sweden. The spectators (Turkish extremists?) were cheering. Later he had to resign (there are also, of course, kind and reasonable people in that organization, who don't want any more genocides, and I presume they didn'…

You'll find the same sentiments among Russians, Moroccans, Israelis, Japanese, Serbians... The Germans may be almost unique in that they took full responsibility for the crimes their state committed.

It's usually rare though.

The largest fascist/ultra far right organization in Germany (by far) are the Turkish Grey Wolves, while ethnic Turks make up about 4% of the population. There are approximately the same amount of ethnic Russians living in Germany, but Russian far right groups aren't known to be relevant in Germany.

I grew up with quite a few Turks in Germany, and all but one were extremely nationalistic and supremacist. It appears that Turkish culture and their historical narratives are different from others. You don't e.g. hear about the Japanese today talking about Koreans as vermin, but it's common to hear those tones from Turkey.

Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth

#124

Post by stjohnswarts »

enriquto wrote: post #107
habibur wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have bad feeling Turkey's president might go that route and bring it up as a retaliation.

> I have bad feeling Turkey's president might go that route and bring it up as a retaliation. That would be a great turn of events for Turkey, Armenia, the U.S. and the world! The U.S. would have the opportunity to respond in kind, acknowledge the North American Genocide, pay reparations for it, and pressure other countries to do the corresponding thing with a very clean face.

You can find out all you want about the genocide of Native Americans (literal tomes of knowledge), it's not hidden. It's not taught as well as it should be in our history books, but you don't get throw in jail referencing it either or threatened with sanctions or ending treaties.

Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth

#125

Post by stjohnswarts »

daneel_w wrote: post #18

Striking how much downvoting on comments with links to more facts about the genocide is going on here. Striking, but not the least surprising...

I don't if the troll farms and download brigades are limited to China/NK/Russia. There are plenty of mercenaries out there that you can hire.

Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth

#126

Post by belgesel »

ismaildonmez wrote: post #122
belgesel wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to know what will this recognition does to your own country both in short and long term. Will Turkey pay a fee for the genocide or will they have to just give up from Ağrı? This subject was always used against Turkey in political confrontations for years. Turkey has been better and stronger ally to USA. This recognition is nothing but a political warning against Erdoğan and his latest actions against USA and a…

> So why are you happy? Because I don’t care if I come from country X, atrocities all around the world have been committed, and still being committed. People have to be responsible for this suffering, we shouldn’t be able to shout “Fake News!” to everything and get away with it.

I think people need another 100 years to forget about it. It's just a toy in the hands of politicians. And now they choose to use it against Turkey. Some day this whole thing will be forgotten.

Nobody living today are responsible or should be responsible for it.

Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth

#127

Post by fakedang »

scythe wrote: post #110
fakedang wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your premise is incorrect though. The Ottoman Empire was not directly responsible for the genocide - the Sultan didn't give orders one fine day in WW1 to massacre all Armenians. But the Turkish military men who eventually went on to depose the powerless Sultan and form the modern-day Republic of Turkey were the ones who instigated the genocide, including Ataturk himself. So yeah, the modern Republic of Turkey has eve…

The general consensus seems to be that the genocide was ordered by the Three Pashas, especially Talaat Pasha, who were the de facto rulers at the time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pashas https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Circular_on_April_24_1915 None of them survived to see the end of the Turkish Revolution. Ataturk was a mere lieutenant colonel at the outbreak of WWI and did not reach the Caucasus theatre unti…

Yes, this is what I was referring to. The Three Pashas were all military men who very much influenced the Turkish independence movement and modern Turkey itself.

The genocide wasn't just limited to the World War though. A lot of significant damage happened between 1919-1923, when the Turkish were fighting for independence. And by 1918, Ataturk was already a general in the Ottoman Army.

Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth

#128

Post by ismaildonmez »

belgesel wrote: post #126
ismaildonmez wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So why are you happy? Because I don’t care if I come from country X, atrocities all around the world have been committed, and still being committed. People have to be responsible for this suffering, we shouldn’t be able to shout “Fake News!” to everything and get away with it.

I think people need another 100 years to forget about it. It's just a toy in the hands of politicians. And now they choose to use it against Turkey. Some day this whole thing will be forgotten. Nobody living today are responsible or should be responsible for it.

It doesn’t work that way though, Turkey took over debts of Ottoman Empire for a reason, this is the same.

Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth

#129

Post by BrandoElFollito »

enriquto wrote: post #105
29athrowaway wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France is always pontificating about "Liberté, égalité, fraternité" and all that kumbaya stuff (which are great ideas, btw), but in practice, some of what they've done in their colonies and their behavior in conflicts is questionable af. I went to an Argelian restaurant some time ago, and the guy there told me that historically, French soldiers demanded that Argelian women have sex with them, and if they refused they…

I agree that the French state is extremely hypocritical in its self-righteousness towards other countries. That does not make the Turkish state any less evil in its denying of the Armenian genocide. And while hypocritical, it is not wrong that the French pressure the Turks to acknowledge their genocide. I would be happy also if France acknowledged all its wrongdoings in Africa as well.

OTOH everyone fought with everyone over the last whatever years. It got more efficient with time but the basic "we hate them" was always here.

As a French I do not expect Spain, England, Germany, Italy, Sweden, let me think, Mongolia and others to apologize because we were the same.

Let's not pretend that humanity has changed and just enjoy our lifes without keeping a list of who apologized and who not.

Of course if France was too claim today that we did not do do anything wrong in Africa or elsewhere that would be outrageous. This does not mean that we will send a sorry letter to 120 countries.

I am married to a non-French, have plenty of friends in Germany (whose family fought in the war where my relatives were killed) and I do not give a fuck about what happened 70 years ago when discussing football with someone my age.

Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth

#130

Post by mbg721 »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #129
enriquto wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the French state is extremely hypocritical in its self-righteousness towards other countries. That does not make the Turkish state any less evil in its denying of the Armenian genocide. And while hypocritical, it is not wrong that the French pressure the Turks to acknowledge their genocide. I would be happy also if France acknowledged all its wrongdoings in Africa as well.

OTOH everyone fought with everyone over the last whatever years. It got more efficient with time but the basic "we hate them" was always here. As a French I do not expect Spain, England, Germany, Italy, Sweden, let me think, Mongolia and others to apologize because we were the same. Let's not pretend that humanity has changed and just enjoy our lifes without keeping a list of who apologized and who not. Of course if…

Americans are rightly ridiculed for going on vacation to Europe and saying "Oh, I'm French/German/Irish/Whatever!" just for having a surname of that nationality. I don't see any point in holding those same people accountable for past state sins.
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