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Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

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Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#121
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should at least be heat pumps...

heat pump are highly inefficient if outside temp gets below ~5 degC and that's what happening right now on most of Europe ( incl. southern europe, I saw spain mentionned here ... )

Heat pumps are always at least as efficient as resistive heating, but do have less efficacy when the ambient temperature goes below their design parameters.

Standard heat pumps these days work great even at 5C, at least any one that I have seen.

The H2i line from Mitsubishi maintains 76% of its COP down to -25C (-13F).

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#122
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should at least be heat pumps...

heat pump are highly inefficient if outside temp gets below ~5 degC and that's what happening right now on most of Europe ( incl. southern europe, I saw spain mentionned here ... )

Just the heat pumps sold to warm countries, others do ok in -20C and even below (eg COP 1.5 at -25C).

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#123
post #54

Yet governments insist newbuilds to be on electric heating... I was saying this won't be nice for a long time. Example: my house, a 1954 built semi-detached - the official average unit in England - has a single phase 100A main cutout. Hob 32A, 2x sockets circuits 2x16A, 2x light circuits 2x6A, oven 16A. That's already 92A at total theoretical capacity. If I was to add FIR panels, that's bare minimum +32A, plus water…

That just means that you can't max out all your circuits at the same time. I'm pretty sure that's considered normal.

If instead of FIR panels you use a heat pump (isn't that the main point of electrical heating), would you still need 32A? And if you're cooking and baking with 10 kW, would you still need heating at the same time? And a 7 kW heat pump water heater should give you ~10 liters per minute of hot shower water.

Seems like any automatic system that could make sure not all high-draw consumers get turned on at the same time would be enough. It does mean that if someone is taking a shower while two people are vacuuming with all the lights on and the kitchen is cooking up a feast, you wouldn't be getting any additional heat or electric car charging, for the hour or so that such high demand can last, but that doesn't seem to be a serious problem (especially as this would only affect older houses).

And you said it's required for new construction, so I assume they'd be putting in 3-phase for those.

The main power lines for the whole street could be a problem, so yes, this may require some new construction. Might as well put down FTTH while at it.

Additionally, if houses add solar, it should reduce typical demand on the grid, as a lot of the current wouldn't have to flow all the way from some substation but would be supplied either within each house or from neighbors.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#124
post #29

Am I naive in assuming that many grid stability issues could be fixed by mandating all electric heaters automatically cut off at, say below 49.9Hz? It is my understanding that modern home EV chargers have the capability to do this to some extent, but I'm not sure if it's actually utilised?

It seems like a better solution would be batteries and/or the allowance of dirtier power generation (in emergencies). I can't even wrap my head around the regulatory nightmare of shutting off everyone's heat at night in January.

It depends on how long you shut the heat off for.

If you do it for 5 minutes while the gas plants spool up, few will notice and fewer will care.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#125
post #30

France seems to have problems generating enough electricity for the current winter demand. https://www.lefigaro.fr/conso/electricite-pour-eviter-des-co... https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/People-in-France... Britain, too: https://uk.news.yahoo.com/britains-national-grid-issues-warn... German press reports about cold temperature and of not enough nuclear power online in France. Reason: maintenance backlogs…

Amprion, the company currently in charge of coordinating the network, states that the cause is still unknown as of two hours ago:

https://twitter.com/Amprion/status/1347595605971972100

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#126
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't really matter if people keep their vehicle for decades, because people usually sell their old vehicles for use by others when they get a new (to them) vehicle. What you want to know is the average life of a vehicle (or average age of the fleet), not the average period of ownership. I'm sure that varies by country; IIRC Germany has punative taxes on registering old cars, so their average age should be a lot…

The average age of operating automobiles in use within the US is closer to 12 years. The registration fee (annual renewal, not initial registration) in the US is based on vehicle value in 8 states by my count. On a personal note, me and most of the people I know think more in terms of miles than years. I figure every car I buy is good for 200,000 miles and most of the brands I favor have another 100,000 miles of life…

> On a personal note, me and most of the people I know think more in terms of miles than years.

I think that partly depends on how you drive and where you live. I'm in a snowy climate: my engine might have no problem going 250,000 miles, but there's virtually no chance the body is drivable after 30-40 years of rust.

With that, I tend to buy a car in years, for example: "I'm hoping to have this for the next 6 years".

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#127
post #54

Yet governments insist newbuilds to be on electric heating... I was saying this won't be nice for a long time. Example: my house, a 1954 built semi-detached - the official average unit in England - has a single phase 100A main cutout. Hob 32A, 2x sockets circuits 2x16A, 2x light circuits 2x6A, oven 16A. That's already 92A at total theoretical capacity. If I was to add FIR panels, that's bare minimum +32A, plus water…

That just means that you can't max out all your circuits at the same time. I'm pretty sure that's considered normal. If instead of FIR panels you use a heat pump (isn't that the main point of electrical heating), would you still need 32A? And if you're cooking and baking with 10 kW, would you still need heating at the same time? And a 7 kW heat pump water heater should give you ~10 liters per minute of hot shower wat…

Heat pump is a no, thank you. 10k for air source, noisy, ugly, big; 3x100m deep holes for ground source, don't even want to know the price.

EDIT: for <5k I'd have the whole house on FIR panels and electric boiler, then I could spend another 5k on solar.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#128
post #54

Yet governments insist newbuilds to be on electric heating... I was saying this won't be nice for a long time. Example: my house, a 1954 built semi-detached - the official average unit in England - has a single phase 100A main cutout. Hob 32A, 2x sockets circuits 2x16A, 2x light circuits 2x6A, oven 16A. That's already 92A at total theoretical capacity. If I was to add FIR panels, that's bare minimum +32A, plus water…

That's strange, here in Sweden electric heating is seen as old and wasteful. In cities most use district heating, others use heat pumps or some kind of bio fuel. At least for new houses, but it's also common as a retrofit.

Read on FIR panels; they are pretty new, and, after testing one, highly pleasant to use.

EDIT FIR = far infrared, eg. https://www.herschel-infrared.co.uk/

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite, they’re insisting all all new vehicles will be electric. Even at that point it’ll still be decades before electric vehicles make up the majority of road traffic.

Do people really keep their vehicles for decades?

Yes. I have a 2004 Toyota Avensis. I fully own it; no loans, no leasing.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#130
post #54

Yet governments insist newbuilds to be on electric heating... I was saying this won't be nice for a long time. Example: my house, a 1954 built semi-detached - the official average unit in England - has a single phase 100A main cutout. Hob 32A, 2x sockets circuits 2x16A, 2x light circuits 2x6A, oven 16A. That's already 92A at total theoretical capacity. If I was to add FIR panels, that's bare minimum +32A, plus water…

If some people have to freeze to death to keep the planet from warming so be it.

Wasn't the point of the comment.
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