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Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

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Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#121
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in Egypt, the Great Pyramid was once covered with gleaming white limestone, but this was removed and used to build mosques This is a very misleading distortion of history. The limestone casing on the Great Pyramid was destroyed in an earthquake in 1308 CE. The limestone rubble was pulled from the base of the pyramid and repurposed for building though much of it was also burned in kilns for lime like the marble of ma…

This comes across a little patronizing. The poster is making the point that North Africa had been part of a civilized empire for centuries, and full of wealthy cities, some famous for their learning. Some of history’s greatest minds lived in Roman North Africa. These cities were conquered. Some were sacked and destroyed. There was major loss of life, economic destruction, and loss of property, including written works…

Your understanding of the region is not an accurate account. Not at all. There have been various sophisticated civilizations in the region, among them various Islamic states. The rises and falls of various sophisticated civilizations came about for a variety of reasons, most of which were prior to the Islamic world existing. The Islamic Golden Age brought Alexandria back from being a declining backwater with its schools closed by late Rome's Christian emperors to returning to a center of learning, one that helped preserve important classical texts that were lost in the West, esp in mathematics and the sciences, and where they were significantly further developed.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Government was stable, until the US of A decided to bless them with freedom and democracy. Your logic is absurd. Should a rich and stable nation steal all things of historical value from a poorer nation, in the name of history preservation? > The Elgin marbles are safe in the British Museum. Would they have been safe, left where they were found, for 100 years? It frankly doesn't matter. It was the right of the na…

> The Government was stable, until the US of A decided to bless them with freedom and democracy. The Iraqi dictatorship was not stable at all. There were constant purges, murders, by Saddam Hussein's regime. That occurred the entire time Saddam was in power. Please explain how that's a stable situation. The fact that Saddam had to constantly murder members of his own government, demonstrates beyond doubt that it was…

You seem to be confusing dictatorship with instability. On your criterion Russia and Turkey would also be classified as unstable, which they do not seem to be.

And off course, stability is relative. Compared to the current state of affairs, Iraqi government 20 years back was far more stable.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#123

One of the outcomes of the US-Iraq war was Iraq's national heritage of antiquities getting plundered and sold illegally.[1] The burning of the Library of Alexandria is a potent symbol in Western culture, but the world has repeatedly suffered massive losses of cultural and historical artifacts in the last few decades. The public quickly develops historical amnesia for recent events. Compare, for example, the loss of B…

The destruction of Baghdad itself, including the House of Wisdom (large library), by the Mongols in 1258 is probably a more apt comparison. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)

A modern equivalent (sorta) -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Universal_Studios_fire

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The destruction of Baghdad itself, including the House of Wisdom (large library), by the Mongols in 1258 is probably a more apt comparison. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)

What a tragedy. Most westerners don't realize that when Europeans were living in mud huts and emptying their chamber pots into the streets, the Muslim world had plumbing, water filtration, surgery, advanced mathematics, and many more amazing scientific advances which quickly spread throughout Muslim countries due to the cultural exchange at Mecca. I wonder what the world could have been like if the Mongols had never…

Same thing happened in India. In fact, there was a lot of Indian influence on Islamic sciences. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_influence_on_Islamic_sc...)

But unfortunately, more than just knowledge was exchanged.

Imagine universities existing for hundreds of years, but promptly destroyed by invaders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda

This pattern repeated throughout India for hundreds of years.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#125

I wonder how many soldier millionaires have been made by the War in Iraq. A small shot at wealth, a low risk of death, maybe going to war there as an individual isn't too bad.

Maybe a contractor, but it would be near impossible to do this as an active duty soldier these days. In WW2 it was common, now it isn't. The US military is very strict about this sort of thing.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#126

> Hobby Lobby bought the tablet in a private sale, after a Hobby Lobby representative viewed the tablet in London. The auction house shipped the tablet to its New York office and, from there, hand-carried it to Hobby Lobby's headquarters in Oklahoma City, "so that Hobby Lobby could avoid incurring a New York sales tax," according to prosecutors. Oy vey. I don't know how serious this is but it's not a great look. Is t…

Wait, your problem is with the actions taken to avoid a taxable event in New York by a buyer in Oklahoma?

This is the same as when you buy something on Amazon and the tax is based on your delivery destination, rather than Amazon's distribution centers or headquarters. It is lawful and makes sense.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#128
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comes across a little patronizing. The poster is making the point that North Africa had been part of a civilized empire for centuries, and full of wealthy cities, some famous for their learning. Some of history’s greatest minds lived in Roman North Africa. These cities were conquered. Some were sacked and destroyed. There was major loss of life, economic destruction, and loss of property, including written works…

Your understanding of the region is not an accurate account. Not at all. There have been various sophisticated civilizations in the region, among them various Islamic states. The rises and falls of various sophisticated civilizations came about for a variety of reasons, most of which were prior to the Islamic world existing. The Islamic Golden Age brought Alexandria back from being a declining backwater with its scho…

Nobody is disputing the existence of the Islamic Golden Age. We are talking about the intermediate, bloody and chaotic period caused by the Muslim conquests that rapidly spread from the Arabian peninsula and overcame the Persian Empire and most of the Roman Empire. These empires didn’t go away for a “variety of reasons”, they went away because they were violently conquered by invading force in the name of religion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests

As for your claims about Alexandria:

> Following the Arab conquest of Egypt in AD 641, the city was plundered and lost its significance before re-emerging in the modern era

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria

Once can also hardly read accounts of the conquest of Alexandria and think “my, what an improvement.” A lot of people died. Parts of the city burned. You are also wrong that the schools were closed prior. That was certainly not the case. Alexandria was a major center of learning up until the conquest.

Carthage was sacked and deliberately destroyed to prevent it from being retaken.

Look, yes, there’s a group of people out there that understates they Islamic Golden Age. But that doesn’t take away from the reality that the early Muslim conquests were absolutely ruinous. People were still writing those “important classical texts” you mention when they were killed and their texts burned. I doubt they would have much appreciated that the conquerors much later translated what survived the flames.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#130
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could say the same thing about a lot of conquerors including the Arab armies. For example, when the Arab armies conquered North Africa, it was one of the richest and most developed areas in the Mediterranean. After the Arab conquest, it became a backwater and never achieved the prominence it had before. Also, in Egypt, the Great Pyramid was once covered with gleaming white limestone, but this was removed and used…

>in Egypt, the Great Pyramid was once covered with gleaming white limestone, but this was removed and used to build mosques This is a very misleading distortion of history. The limestone casing on the Great Pyramid was destroyed in an earthquake in 1308 CE. The limestone rubble was pulled from the base of the pyramid and repurposed for building though much of it was also burned in kilns for lime like the marble of ma…

If that "Golden Age" includes the destruction of Nalanda[1], then forgive me if I agree with the person you're replying to, it was an incredibly destructive empire that aggressively expanded and destroyed anything that deemed heretic. As such, it's not exceptional in either sense.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda#Decline_and_destructio...

Edit - As I can't reply to stuff like this (it deserved to die) but in case I get anything more like it:

> Find me an "empire" that wasn't destructive. You're disingenuous, and likely racist as all hell. Fuck off.

I'm making that exact point, all empires are destructive, hence the it's not exceptional in either sense. Thanks to all those who can read and all those who don't go around calling others racists for no good reason.

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