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Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#121

Post by brutt »

knolax wrote: post #55
jevgeni wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic, all areas of Russia where the non-Russian ethnicity is dominant (of which there are a lot) should all be written out in their respective languages. Also, the argument "well it was like that since " does not really have traction. Why choose an arbitrary time point? Usually, these arguments fall apart when you suggest to look at .

But concepts like "Russian" and "Ukrainian" are time period specific. I think GP is saying that the area has been Russian-majority every since when the distinction between Russian and Ukrainian came into existence.

Distinction between Russians and Ukrainians started after rename of (Kievan) Russia into Ukraine in 1908, when delegates from whole Russia Empire made decision to change name, to move away from Moscow. After Soviet Revolution, Ukrainians started Great Ukrainization, with it peak in 1929. At it peak, 81 millions of Ukrainians (Russians) and 77 millions of Russians (Russish) were counted in 1926. This was perceived as great threat to Soviet Union, because Ukrainians wanted their own, independent from Moscow, country. To tame Ukrainians, genocide was started, known as Holodomor, which killed 7 millions of adults (accepted by RF) and 23 millions of children (not accepted by RF) in 1932-1934, which are hidden in losses in WWW2, which are raised from 12 millions to 42 millions. Also, 20 millions of Ukrainians were written as Russians at Kuban and Crimea, so number of Russians jumped from 77 millions to 97 millions. So, at next people count, 97 millions of Russians and 29 millions of Ukrainians were counted. Problem solved. To tame Ukraine furthers, Ukrainian language was forbidden to use, and Ukrainian elite is (still) killed regularly.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#123

Post by varjag »

pishpash wrote: post #101
varjag wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They became independent around 1918 and occupied in 1940. Plenty of the modern European nation-states emerged in 20th century, including Poland, Norway, Hungary.. would you dispute statehood of those?

The Confederacy also became independent for a few years, before being reabsorbed under the gun. How long do you keep depicting a fiction?

The Confederacy wasn't a distinct nation state but a faction in Civil War. Noone argues that Whites and Reds in Russia were independent nations, or would you?

Take Finland: it gained independence in much the same circumstances as Baltic states. The only difference was that USSR was not able to fully occupy it in 1940. That's it, there is no other reason an average Russian would scoff at Balts and respect Finland than getting a bloody nose there once.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#124

Post by mensetmanusman »

jevgeni wrote: post #60
nickpeterson wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has the power to take a portion of territory and they did. The means through which they did it is considered wrong, but it doesn't change the reality of who controls the area. Maps of political borders are maps of influence, not maps of ideals. I'll also note that thoughts and prayers are not terribly useful in these situations. Force responds to force, nothing else. I expect Russia to continue doing these sor…

That is legally not true.

Law is a subset of violent power.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#126

Post by brutt »

cpursley wrote: post #116
brutt wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot to mention that Crimea Tatars, Greeks, and Ukrainians were deported and murdered in Crimea. It's easy to make Crimea speak any language this way. However, in times before mass-education was started and official variant of Russian language was developed, the folk variant of language spoken there was called "molva", which now known as Ukrainian language ("mova").

Well, yes - this deportation happened and is one of the many dark moments in USSR history. Glad you brought this up - difficult to write the entire history of the region on hn. The history of the Pontic Greeks and then later, Italian city states, in the Black Sea is really fascinating. This is a pretty decent English language history of the area: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_(book) Also, I didn't know ab…

Molva (~rumors, «народная молва») was common name of folk language spoken at territory of (Kievan) Russia. Later it was replaced by official developed language, called yazyk ( tongue, «язык»), which was based on ancient dialect of South Slavic language, as spoken in Russian churches.

However, leaders of folk movement, later known as Ukrainians, developed and enhanced folk language, which then was renamed into Ukrainian language, and used as one of symbols of independence from Moscow, so it was systematically suppressed by government of Russian Empire, Soviet Union, and Russian Federation.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#127

Post by redwall_hp »

EGreg wrote: post #118
kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the real reason is that OSM is, practically speaking, not important enough for countries to bother with censoring it.

Public Data should be open and anyone can run their own policies on integrating crowdsourced changes. One company hosting the data centrally is responsible for dealing with multiple parties and figuring out a resolution. Often the parties have little recourse but to fine it or block it. We see similar issues when Facebook is blasted by Germany for not censoring a post and by the Trump administration for censoring a s…

>We need REAL open source alternatives to facebook. What are they today?

GNU Social/Mastodon is by far the most widespread today. It's more like Twitter. (Mastodon is a more modern implementation of the GNU Social protocol, which in turn is the descendent of the Identica mess.)

There was also Diaspora, but that never really caught on.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#128

Post by brutt »

cpursley wrote: post #106
zzzcpan wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most Crimeans don't speak any Ukrainian. No, most Crimeans do speak both Russian and Ukrainian, just like everyone else in Ukraine, since Ukrainian is the only official language and it's pretty much impossible to not be exposed to both languages, especially in education and media. After the fall of Soviet Union all the ethnic Russians in Ukraine (incl. Crimea) had no way of avoiding it and do speak Ukrainian.

Are you Ukrainian? Have you been to Crimea? A language becoming official (which was only very recent) does not magically make everyone fluent. Sure, Crimeans probably all know some A2 level Ukrainian from media. But they are not fluent and are likely speaking Russian or Tartar at home.

I'm Ukrainian. I was in Crimea. I have aunt in Crimea. I had no problem with Ukrainian language in Crimea.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#129

Post by brutt »

FpUser wrote: post #63
nickpeterson wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has the power to take a portion of territory and they did. The means through which they did it is considered wrong, but it doesn't change the reality of who controls the area. Maps of political borders are maps of influence, not maps of ideals. I'll also note that thoughts and prayers are not terribly useful in these situations. Force responds to force, nothing else. I expect Russia to continue doing these sor…

I expect Russia to continue doing these sorts of things while the world frets. I think the situation with Crimea is unique as there is a set of multiple historical, racial, political etc. etc. factors not present anywhere else. What else could Russia possibly annex without triggering major war and world mayhem?

Alaska maybe. :-/

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#130

Post by [deleted] »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #18

This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan, Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly news. The only major-league mapping site I know that doesn't do local alterations is OpenStreetMap, and that's because OSM's attitude is "you want the map to show something else? sure, download the raw data and host your own instance".

[deleted]
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