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Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#111

Post by cpursley »

zzzcpan wrote: post #108
cpursley wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you Ukrainian? Have you been to Crimea? A language becoming official (which was only very recent) does not magically make everyone fluent. Sure, Crimeans probably all know some A2 level Ukrainian from media. But they are not fluent and are likely speaking Russian or Tartar at home.

Like half of the country are speaking Russian at home and at work too by the way. That doesn't mean they don't know Ukrainian.

Please show your evidence, because it's not what I've read nor experienced during my visits to Crimea.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#112

Post by brutt »

cpursley wrote: post #10

> However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling. The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian). It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. In fact, there's nearly as many Tartar (descendents of Ottomans) speakers in Crimea than Ukrainian. Last…

You forgot to mention that Crimea Tatars, Greeks, and Ukrainians were deported and murdered in Crimea. It's easy to make Crimea speak any language this way. However, in times before mass-education was started and official variant of Russian language was developed, the folk variant of language spoken there was called "molva", which now known as Ukrainian language ("mova").

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#113

Post by Freak_NL »

yardie wrote: post #7

This probably happens a lot more than you realize. Border and geographic name disputes can get very political and potentially violent. Off the top of my head: * Persian/Arabian Gulf * Palestine/Israel * Western Sahara/Morocco * Kashmir

* The Netherlands/Germany

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=10/53.4786/6.6982

Note the overlapping borders that makes a bit of sea part of both countries.

This is strictly a non-violent matter of differing border interpretations though, with almost no judicial or maritime consequences.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#114

Post by jmull »

I would think maps published in a given region pretty much have to follow the political norms of that region -- unless they are specifically meant as a political statement.

Now, if Apple showed Crimea as part of Russia in other parts of the world in response to Russian pressure, then that's a story.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#115

Post by saulrh »

adrianmonk wrote: post #95
treden wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.

> google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth There is an objective truth here, though, that could be shown (if it were allowed). You could show it as disputed. That the dispute exists is an objective truth. The very fact that different states require you to display it differently is proof of that. > presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're comin…

The question isn't whether or not there's a dispute. The question is whether or not there's a meaningful dispute, and whoever's showing the map still has to make that determination. For example, I still hear people calling it "the war of northern aggression" and calling for the South to rise again. Do we mark everything south of the Mason-Dixon line as being disputed by successionists? No, obviously - that claim is ridiculous. But that claim exists, and so you must decide whether or not it is "legitimate". It is exactly the same process as deciding how to show Crimea or Ukraine or dozens of other international borders of varying dubiousness.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#116

Post by cpursley »

brutt wrote: post #112
cpursley wrote: post #10

> However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling. The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian). It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. In fact, there's nearly as many Tartar (descendents of Ottomans) speakers in Crimea than Ukrainian. Last…

You forgot to mention that Crimea Tatars, Greeks, and Ukrainians were deported and murdered in Crimea. It's easy to make Crimea speak any language this way. However, in times before mass-education was started and official variant of Russian language was developed, the folk variant of language spoken there was called "molva", which now known as Ukrainian language ("mova").

Well, yes - this deportation happened and is one of the many dark moments in USSR history. Glad you brought this up - difficult to write the entire history of the region on hn. The history of the Pontic Greeks and then later, Italian city states, in the Black Sea is really fascinating.

This is a pretty decent English language history of the area: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_(book)

Also, I didn't know about "mova", neat - this language or dialect was spoken in Crimea?

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#118

Post by EGreg »

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #40
Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #18

This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan, Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly news. The only major-league mapping site I know that doesn't do local alterations is OpenStreetMap, and that's because OSM's attitude is "you want the map to show something else? sure, download the raw data and host your own instance".

I think the real reason is that OSM is, practically speaking, not important enough for countries to bother with censoring it.

Public Data should be open and anyone can run their own policies on integrating crowdsourced changes.

One company hosting the data centrally is responsible for dealing with multiple parties and figuring out a resolution. Often the parties have little recourse but to fine it or block it.

We see similar issues when Facebook is blasted by Germany for not censoring a post and by the Trump administration for censoring a similar post. The guys in their boiler room use Google Translate to see if a post in another language is offensive, which is ironic since Facebook is using a Google tool internally.

A more pointed example is when the SESTA / FOSTA bill was passed last year to require platforms to police child pornography being posted and the EFF and other free speech advocates were actually up in arms about it, saying that puts undue burdens on facebook and other platforms which are far too big.

The problem is why are they too big? Because they run all the software and don’t give it to us. And open source software isn’t good enough to compete with what they have. Look at HN, it is able to add whatever rules it needs to police stuff, and runs on Arc.

That’s why Wordpress, Magento, OSM are so important. Eventually they will copy everything the centralized players have and you can CUSTOMIZE them with a marketplace of plugins. Like how the Web replaced AOL.

We need REAL open source alternatives to facebook. What are they today?

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#119

Post by agumonkey »

anotheryou wrote: post #26

The sentence about google maps is wrong. Google shows whatever you want to see. https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg Google.com.ua users see a state/province border (top image) Google.de users a disputed international boundary (middle image) Google.ru users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings of city names (bottom image). (and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans) I made th…

I find this contextual reality somehow funny. Can I have a google.1600.es too ? just so I can enjoy a larger empire.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#120

Post by thepete2 »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #18

This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan, Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly news. The only major-league mapping site I know that doesn't do local alterations is OpenStreetMap, and that's because OSM's attitude is "you want the map to show something else? sure, download the raw data and host your own instance".

IIRC OSM's attitude is "map what's on the ground", so if people in Crimea believe they are in Russia that's what OSM should show.
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