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Apple's list of 235 apps that are incompatible with macOS Catalina

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Re: Apple's list of 235 apps that are incompatible with macOS Catalina

#121

Post by scarface74 »

vortico wrote: post #116
scarface74 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really think that Microsoft or Adobe spends 10x as much to support the Mac? If the ROI on Macs is so horrible compared to Linux then why wouldn’t Adobe or MS be dropping Mac support and instead support Linux?

Yes, platform-specific expenses are 10x on Mac vs. Linux and Windows. I said nothing about ROI. You're confusing that with platform-specific expenses. ROI of platform = number of platform users * price - "platform-specific expenses" Hopefully you can see why even if "platform-specific expenses" is high, the ROI of the platform can be higher than another platform, because the number of platform users is much higher.

If it is so much more expensive to support the Mac than Linux, why won’t the major software vendors support Linux?

Are you going to drop support for the Mac?

Re: Apple's list of 235 apps that are incompatible with macOS Catalina

#122

Post by vortico »

gbear605 wrote: post #107
vortico wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's nonsense because it didn't exist before. Imagine you're a long-time user of my software. You upgrade your operating system (because's Apple's marketing tells you to) and find that my software doesn't work anymore. Who made the change? Apple. Who do customers complain to? Me. Despite any argument, Apple's change has cost me $1000+ of development costs for users to continue using my software. Apple is not my custo…

You're not doing work for Apple, you're doing work that helps your existing customers have more secure systems.

If my customers wanted this, I would gladly budget for it. But nobody has asked for this, even when I bring it up.

The reason (I imagine) is that people use my software in professional/home studios where you typically have a dedicated computer to run the software. People purchase a computer based on the recommended specs of my software, and some don't even bother connecting it to the Internet after getting everything installed. If they do, they don't download random software from the Internet because 2 or 3 packages is all they need. There just aren't really any attack vectors that things like app translocation, notarization, code-signing, runtime entitlements, app stapling, paying $100/yr to be an Apple Developer member, etc would solve.

Re: Apple's list of 235 apps that are incompatible with macOS Catalina

#123

Post by ahakki »

catalogia wrote: post #59
scarface74 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple’s Mac sales are minuscule though in the grand scheme of things and only a small part of their revenue.

Their other products, while locked down to forbid running third party operating systems, are still nevertheless hardware. With the exception of itunes and safari on Windows, virtually everything Apple does involves selling hardware to consumers.

iTunes on Windows was to sell iPods.

Re: Apple's list of 235 apps that are incompatible with macOS Catalina

#124

Post by deergomoo »

bsamuels wrote: post #85
greggman2 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time to run them in a VM with and old OS the same as older games?

Can you imagine a world where someone who wants to play old Mac games has half a dozen VM containers with different versions of MacOS on them for each game that's compatible with each version? I can't

Realistically, I'd be willing to bet the only old Mac games people are going to want to play are for classic Mac OS, in which case you already need to use a VM and have done for at least a decade.

I'm struggling to think of any games in OS X era where the Mac would be even close to the easiest or best place to play them.

I appreciate the notion that if you've bought the software you want to be able to keep using it for as long as possible, but we're talking about the niche-est of niches here.

Re: Apple's list of 235 apps that are incompatible with macOS Catalina

#125

Post by turndown »

scarface74 wrote: post #95
turndown wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not having to worry about yet another security vulnerability caused by 10 year old code does impact me. Surely you're not suggesting that OS X is somehow more secure because it doesn't provide as much backwards compatability? >It’s also nice to have other Apple products that MS could never produce because they worshipped at the alter of backwards compatibility. It is looking more and more like Apple cannot produce p…

By definition, the less code you have to maintain the less surface area for vulnerabilities. It is looking more and more like Apple cannot produce products other people can, not the other way around. Most of their recent product announcements(2017 and after, especially) have begun to look quite disappointing in my eyes. If that were true, you would see Apple’s products trending downward when other competitors are tre…

>By definition, the less code you have to maintain the less surface area for vulnerabilities.

It does not sound like you have any legitimate information about how Windows compatability increases vulnerabilites beyond vague statements. Trust me when I say that no one here thinks Windows is terribly secure, just that Mac OS X isn't secure at all either, and doesn't provide backwards compatability on top.

>If that were true, you would see Apple’s products trending downward when other competitors are trending upwards.....

Is this not the case? Lowered product buys have been offset by higher prices, but the craze of Apple products of the early to mid 2010s is over; I have also only heard negative things about their recent products too. The failed keyboard on Macbooks, how buggy the recent OS release has been, both of my roommates who have iPhone Xs are thinking about switching to Android after being plagued with constant hardware and software issues. Of course, it is possible I live in a bubble, but most people I know who have Apple technology complain a lot more about their tech than I do.

Re: Apple's list of 235 apps that are incompatible with macOS Catalina

#126

Post by avar »

Sendotsh wrote: post #89
skybrian wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the hand, most people stop playing most games pretty quickly after purchase, too. And the good ones often get remade. So, while this will disappoint some people, I think "destroys the reputation" is a bit much. Many game buyers don't care that much.

Top 2 games being played worldwide in steam right now were made 7 years ago. TF2 was made in 2007 and is still in the top 10. There’s also a huge number of gamers who played older games. In my friends list I’d say roughly half at any given time are imaging non-AA games that are at least 5 years old, and more than half at least regularly play older games. Going back and playing favourites is an absolutely integral par…

Does TF2 really count as a game made in 2007? Same for GTAV, WOW etc. These games have all gotten extensive updates, almost nobody is playing the gold master version of these games.

It says more about how some publishers have moved from releasing new games to incremental updates as part of a subscription model than it does about people playing "old" games.

Re: Apple's list of 235 apps that are incompatible with macOS Catalina

#127

Post by ratww »

Aloha wrote: post #99
scarface74 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point should they drop support?

For carbonlib? No idea, now seems fine. For 32-bit cocoa apps? I see no obvious technical reason to drop support, unless I'm missing something.

I think their rationale is that they don't want to maintain 32-bit and 64-bit code forever.

But IMO, Apple should have removed Carbon last year (six years after deprecation). That would have made the removal of 32-bit Cocoa a bit less traumatic.

Re: Apple's list of 235 apps that are incompatible with macOS Catalina

#128

Post by taspeotis »

ken wrote: post #67
chimi wrote: post #2

This is why Microsoft is the better long-term play: Backwards compatibility -- their commitment to the investment of labor. If you build your software on Apple, there almost certainly will come a point in the future where your code will cease to work. Microsoft has made a commitment to backward compatibility. It's such a huge benefit. I have code that has continued to run, untouched, for decades . I don't have to upg…

There's plenty of areas where Microsoft has dropped the ball on backwards compatibility. They've got operating systems they no longer support, including Windows 10 Mobile in just a couple months. There's hardware platforms they no longer support. Their "PlaysForSure" content can no longer be played. Their web browsers drop support for old technologies all the time, e.g., Edge doesn't support ActiveX. Xbox One is only…

> Edge doesn't support ActiveX.

They maintain Internet Explorer 11 which has support for ActiveX...

Re: Apple's list of 235 apps that are incompatible with macOS Catalina

#129

Post by vortico »

scarface74 wrote: post #121
vortico wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, platform-specific expenses are 10x on Mac vs. Linux and Windows. I said nothing about ROI. You're confusing that with platform-specific expenses. ROI of platform = number of platform users * price - "platform-specific expenses" Hopefully you can see why even if "platform-specific expenses" is high, the ROI of the platform can be higher than another platform, because the number of platform users is much higher.

If it is so much more expensive to support the Mac than Linux, why won’t the major software vendors support Linux? Are you going to drop support for the Mac?

Because the "number of platform users" is very low (say 0.2-2% for professional users). I explained that above.

>Are you going to drop support for the Mac?

Probably not, but I might begin charging 20% more for Mac versions of the software.

Re: Apple's list of 235 apps that are incompatible with macOS Catalina

#130

Post by catalogia »

ahakki wrote: post #123
catalogia wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their other products, while locked down to forbid running third party operating systems, are still nevertheless hardware. With the exception of itunes and safari on Windows, virtually everything Apple does involves selling hardware to consumers.

iTunes on Windows was to sell iPods.

Bingo. So that leaves Safari, which apparently no longer supports Windows but once did in the past.
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