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The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

nytimes.com

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Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#121

Post by OkGoDoIt »

theLotusGambit wrote: post #93
karmelapple wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a high school class dedicated to applying to college, with the “final project” being that you applied somewhere? Wow... this is surprising to me! Can you apply to any school, including trade schools for, say, welding?

I'll be honest, I have no idea! I can't remember the topic of trade schools ever being brought up in class or otherwise. I think you could probably do it, but it would be very unconventional.

So they have an actual class dedicated to teaching you about this, and that class fails to enumerate all of your options? That seems like a sub-optimal situation. Sounds like my sex-ed class in Georgia which never even discussed birth control.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#122

Post by rayiner »

s3m4j wrote: post #118
rayiner wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making unsupported assertions can’t make them come true. College should controversial. College, as it exists today, entails large expense and opportunity cost. We became a very advanced society sending only a small percentage of people to college. There is little reason to think tripling the proportion of people who go to college will improve the fundamentals of the economy.

Every piece of historic evidence tends to prove that higher education for an ever growing part of the population seem to correlate with better living standards.

In societies with large surpluses, young people can afford to waste years of their life on unproductive endeavours. That’s correlation not causation. It’s like lifestyle diseases. Nobody would encourage you to be sedentary, even though that’s correlated with higher living standards too.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#123

Post by wtvanhest »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #120

The 'for profit' chart there is the whole story. If your business model is that you can give someone money and then force them to pay it back without any ability to discharge it, you have essentially re-invented indentured servitude. And it attracts scumbags more strongly than a half dead bleeding seal attracts sharks. We have gone through a couple of very public shutdowns as some of these for profit schools lose the…

It is certainly not the whole story. For profit is a problem, but its a very small problem vs public school debt. You need to multiply the avg by the number of debtors.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#124

Post by fzeroracer »

drcode wrote: post #34
acjohnson55 wrote: post #18

It's a damn shame we've let this crisis reach this scale. Along with healthcare, climate change, the debt, our inauguration, and so on, we've been essentially frozen for most of my life as politicians concern themselves more so with existential power struggle. The right wants to bring us back to the gilded age, the left makes headlines but is barely relevant, and the center is trying to squeeze bandaid solutions whil…

I must say, as someone who made quite a few sacrifices to pay off my school debt, I'll be pretty miffed if less responsible people from my same generation get a break on their loans.

I must say as someone who has spent quite a lot of money on healthcare, I'll be pretty miffed if heathier people from my same generation get a break if they have a health crisis.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#125

Post by zhdc1 »

batteryhorse wrote: post #95
Delmania wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None; absolutely none. Term limits are a terrible idea because to gain experience with politics and credibility within the establishment requires years. Institute term limits lobbyists gain all the power as they are the only ones who have the clout to get legislation passed. You'd need to institute campaign finance reform and ban lobbyists before you could start terms limits. But these are just both band aids on Amer…

I can't express how wrong this response is. Term limits are necessary, there should be no such thing as a "career politician". A politician should be required to have actual skills, and not just a nice smile. Experience with politics is meaningless, there should be NO establishment. It is always the new guy who reveals the truth to the people, which is a good thing. Experience only results in being able to lie to the…

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

The highest level of government is the worst place I can think of to have a cadre of amateurs running the show.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#126

Post by throwawayjava »

batteryhorse wrote: post #95
Delmania wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None; absolutely none. Term limits are a terrible idea because to gain experience with politics and credibility within the establishment requires years. Institute term limits lobbyists gain all the power as they are the only ones who have the clout to get legislation passed. You'd need to institute campaign finance reform and ban lobbyists before you could start terms limits. But these are just both band aids on Amer…

I can't express how wrong this response is. Term limits are necessary, there should be no such thing as a "career politician". A politician should be required to have actual skills, and not just a nice smile. Experience with politics is meaningless, there should be NO establishment. It is always the new guy who reveals the truth to the people, which is a good thing. Experience only results in being able to lie to the…

> Experience only results in being able to lie to the public, to further the establishment.

This is not the case in other fields such as Engineering, Medicine, Education, or Law. More experienced engineers, doctors, lawyers, and educators tend to be better at their craft. Failing to keep up with new methodology/technology is also a problem.

It's almost like the quality of the person is more important than their age or seniority.

Now, I don't have any first-hand experience with legislatures. However, based on analogies in fields I'm more familiar with, I am a bit suspicious of the claim that there aren't any advantages to seniority and experience.

Also, consider this concrete question: would term limits fix the student debt problem? I don't see any arguments in this thread that it would.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#127

Post by wtvanhest »

thatjsguy wrote: post #63
dev_dull wrote: post #19

There really needs to be some “free market” ideology injected into the way loans are dispersed. First of all students need a way to declare bankruptcy. Second, we must take into consideration future earnings potential when deciding how much and at what rate.

What if we just like... paid for school with taxes like literally every other country? (Trust me, it shouldn’t cost as much as it does to get a degree. I promise it can be and, in fact, used to be affordable.)

We need a mechanism to control costs. The loans are just one side of the story. The majority of public universities are rapidly increasing their cost structures.

That doesn't work longterm.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#128

Post by troupe »

drcode wrote: post #34
acjohnson55 wrote: post #18

It's a damn shame we've let this crisis reach this scale. Along with healthcare, climate change, the debt, our inauguration, and so on, we've been essentially frozen for most of my life as politicians concern themselves more so with existential power struggle. The right wants to bring us back to the gilded age, the left makes headlines but is barely relevant, and the center is trying to squeeze bandaid solutions whil…

I must say, as someone who made quite a few sacrifices to pay off my school debt, I'll be pretty miffed if less responsible people from my same generation get a break on their loans.

It isn't just a matter of irresponsible people getting something for free that you had to work hard for. You'll basically be paying for their loans in taxes.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#129

Post by darkerside »

stouset wrote: post #86
drcode wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suffered so others should have to I didn't "suffer", I just fulfilled the obligations I signed up for when I signed up to my loans.

This is not a defensible reason to allow the whole system to come crashing down.

You're setting up a regrettable false dichotomy there

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#130

Post by troupe »

drcode wrote: post #107
ryfia wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree with you on this. Despite getting accepted to many top-tier universities (Berkeley, Yale, Rice), I chose to go to an in-state school with a generous scholarship so I could come out of school with very little loans. I sacrificed going to a really great school like Berkeley (and living in California!) so I would save money and not end up in so much debt. While I fully think that debt is a nondesirable…

Thanks, nice to have a single person agree with me. That said, I also agree that my personal situation (be it through luck or responsible behavior) now makes it possible for me to be generous to others, and I'm certainly happy to pay extra in taxes, to an extent. I guess what bothers me is just this sense of entitlement of people that originated from my same social stratum who now argue "the game was rigged" when I n…

It isn't that the game is rigged. It is that it assumes rational actors are making wise decisions about their future. Someone who carefully selects a degree that they know will let them pay back their loans is who the system is designed for. There are a lot of people who aren't behaving that way. The numbers are high enough that this isn't just a matter of some people having some hardship. This a large number of people making very poor decisions.
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