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The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

nytimes.com

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Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#91

Post by ryfia »

drcode wrote: post #34
acjohnson55 wrote: post #18

It's a damn shame we've let this crisis reach this scale. Along with healthcare, climate change, the debt, our inauguration, and so on, we've been essentially frozen for most of my life as politicians concern themselves more so with existential power struggle. The right wants to bring us back to the gilded age, the left makes headlines but is barely relevant, and the center is trying to squeeze bandaid solutions whil…

I must say, as someone who made quite a few sacrifices to pay off my school debt, I'll be pretty miffed if less responsible people from my same generation get a break on their loans.

I actually agree with you on this.

Despite getting accepted to many top-tier universities (Berkeley, Yale, Rice), I chose to go to an in-state school with a generous scholarship so I could come out of school with very little loans. I sacrificed going to a really great school like Berkeley (and living in California!) so I would save money and not end up in so much debt.

While I fully think that debt is a nondesirable thing to have, and that we do not educate people about debt enough, I don't know if loan forgiveness is the answer. I have personally paid off a close friend's student loans and old medical bills, and guess what? Even after all that she was just as financially irresponsible as before.

As a related situation, I know a few people who come to me asking me for help with rent or medical bills. When I ask them, why don't you have any money, they say it's because their hours were cut, or something else. But when I step back and look at the whole picture, I realize that because they went on an expensive vacation, and went to the bars every other night, and spent lots of money on clothes, that's the real reason they didn't have money. So when they asked me to help pay their rent, they were really asking me to help finance their vacation.

In a similar way, if we (collectively, the taxpayers) pay for the students who can't afford the student loans, we're actually subsidizing whatever the people DID spend their money on, or their choice to go to more expensive schools when less expensive schools are available, perhaps at the cost of those who, like me, chose to save money by going to less expensive schools.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#92

Post by fzeroracer »

Delmania wrote: post #68
fzeroracer wrote: post #29

In a fit of irony I managed to graduate college because I was too poor to pay for college. FAFSA covered everything I needed, although I had to make large medical sacrifices along the way. Needless to say student debt in America is out of control. We told kids endlessly that they should chase their dream and become who they want while pulling the rug out from under them and using predatory loaning practices. It's ano…

I don't think making college free would solve the issue. We have this narrative that you need college to get ahead when there are many quality trade schools, on the job training, and (perhaps a bit controversial) the military. I think we need to give seniors the full picture of options.

The first two options are only viable in a couple of sectors and increasingly (in my opinion) we've seen on the job training for low-experience workers vanish in the software sector. Not everyone is going to want to go the trade school route and again, limiting educational options by wealth is why we're in this situation in the first place.

And the military is a no-go. We already use it as a welfare gate for poor Americans, creating a society where the poor have to serve in the military to survive while the rich skip out. This is a dystopian ideal to me.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#93

Post by theLotusGambit »

karmelapple wrote: post #79
theLotusGambit wrote: post #66

Perspective (anecdote) from a high school student: There is a real push for college. It's an unstated assumption that you're going to go, and the topic of debt seems to be passively avoided ("Don't worry, it'll all work out!"). We receive a grade for the college application process, so you can't not apply. College is still probably a good deal the majority of the time I think, but I wish there was some acknowledgemen…

There is a high school class dedicated to applying to college, with the “final project” being that you applied somewhere? Wow... this is surprising to me! Can you apply to any school, including trade schools for, say, welding?

I'll be honest, I have no idea! I can't remember the topic of trade schools ever being brought up in class or otherwise. I think you could probably do it, but it would be very unconventional.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#94

Post by dev_dull »

thatjsguy wrote: post #63
dev_dull wrote: post #19

There really needs to be some “free market” ideology injected into the way loans are dispersed. First of all students need a way to declare bankruptcy. Second, we must take into consideration future earnings potential when deciding how much and at what rate.

What if we just like... paid for school with taxes like literally every other country? (Trust me, it shouldn’t cost as much as it does to get a degree. I promise it can be and, in fact, used to be affordable.)

In many ways taxes do pay for it. For example around 50% of state school tuition is paid for by taxes. Yet sky-high, emphatically unpayable debt persists and is getting worse.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#95

Post by batteryhorse »

Delmania wrote: post #57
lend000 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often wonder how many problems would be fixed by adding a 2 term limit to the House and Senate.

None; absolutely none. Term limits are a terrible idea because to gain experience with politics and credibility within the establishment requires years. Institute term limits lobbyists gain all the power as they are the only ones who have the clout to get legislation passed. You'd need to institute campaign finance reform and ban lobbyists before you could start terms limits. But these are just both band aids on Amer…

I can't express how wrong this response is.

Term limits are necessary, there should be no such thing as a "career politician". A politician should be required to have actual skills, and not just a nice smile.

Experience with politics is meaningless, there should be NO establishment. It is always the new guy who reveals the truth to the people, which is a good thing. Experience only results in being able to lie to the public, to further the establishment. Otherwise it becomes us vs them.

People will do anything to maintain power. It should be one year and out, nobody should be able to get rich by becoming a politician.

A good first step would be to get rid of Diane Feinstein.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#96

Post by debtfreer »

bogomipz wrote: post #77

Can someone say at what point does delinquency turn into default? Also I was under the impression that student loan debt could not be charged off, even in bankruptcy.

Default usually occurs around 120 days after the last payment has been made.

Federal student loans typically have mechanisms (deferment, forbearance, income-based repayment plans) that make it nearly impossible to truly default on the loans.

Private student loans are similar to unsecured consumer debt. Once the unpaid mark crosses 120 days or so, the loan is effectively collected like any other debt (though debt collectors, collection attorneys, and lawsuits).

Student loan debt is presumably not dischargeable in bankruptcy, unless the debtor can prove that the debt would create an undue hardship and other factors which are very difficult to achieve (see the Brunner Test for most jurisdictions or the Totality of the Circumstances test for the 8th Circuit).

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#97

Post by imtringued »

jldugger wrote: post #36
dev_dull wrote: post #19

There really needs to be some “free market” ideology injected into the way loans are dispersed. First of all students need a way to declare bankruptcy. Second, we must take into consideration future earnings potential when deciding how much and at what rate.

> First of all students need a way to declare bankruptcy. While I'm not for or against such a policy, I find it intriguing you think bankruptcy is free market ideology adjacent.

That's basic economics of lending. If X% of people default then you have to increase interest rates to cover the people that default. The increased interest rate will dissuade students from taking on degrees with lesser economic prospects.

It's like adding back pressure or load shedding to a distributed system. It is better to drop or delay requests than let the entire system collapse under it's own weight.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#99

Post by SamReidHughes »

stouset wrote: post #86
drcode wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suffered so others should have to I didn't "suffer", I just fulfilled the obligations I signed up for when I signed up to my loans.

This is not a defensible reason to allow the whole system to come crashing down.

It's not going to come crashing down. The national Debt is a much bigger deal.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#100

Post by IMTDb »

sosilkj wrote: post #30
Kephael wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's absurd, you're much better off going to a reputable school, working hard, grinding leetcode, completing internships, and then getting a $150k+/yr TC job to start. You'll come out far ahead by going to a good school. If you're able to start at Google while you're still in high school, that's a different story.

"$150k+/yr TC" ... is that considered an average/expected comp coming right out of college these days?

It's the compensation some expect, not the one they get. And if they took a student loan based on those calculations, they end up being the subject of the article.
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