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Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

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Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#121

Post by vidarh »

mkirklions wrote: post #108
krylon wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once spent a boring Sunday afternoon researching the alternatives on Wikipedia. As far as I could find out, they are illegal (Amphetamine), prescription-only (Modafinil) and/or very bad for your health (Methamphetamine). Amphetamine and Methamphetamine are also rather addictive and apparently quitting once you formed a habit is no fun. Ephedrine might be an alternative, but in Germany, it's prescription-only, and I…

Uh... I hope I dont ruin anyones life talking about the legal solution... So I found that psudoephedrine (cold medicine) is pretty darn close to amphetamines. Find the 12 hour, 120mg capsules. I think you get 20 pills for like 6 dollars. Basically I'd take 2 saturday morning. Wait a half hour and drink caffeine as needed through the day. Wow. I'm talking from 5AM until 2AM I am able to work. Not just stuff I enjoy, b…

Pseudoephedrine is a scheduled drug, prescription only or available over the counter with various restrictions (such as e.g. showing ID) most places because it's sought after as a precursor to methamphetamine. Particularly be careful if you intend to take it over a border.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#122

Post by ejstronge »

sAbakumoff wrote: post #6

Is there the TLDR version of this paper?

Take a look at figures 5 and 6 - it's a bit hard to parse but you'll get a lot out of them.

There are four different scenarios presented, and each has its own optimal strategy.

In general, their optimal model uses less caffeine overall, and seems to use it in proportion to expected sleep restriction as opposed to using it widely. They cite research on the difficult in recovering from large caffeine loads as their motivation for reducing overall caffeine intake.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#123

Post by Fnoord »

newfoundglory wrote: post #68
crazygringo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "a form of caffeine that is particularly potent" I've heard this over and over, but as far as I can tell, caffeine = caffeine = caffeine. I'm not a chemist, but I can't find any mention of any different forms -- it's C8H10N4O2. [1] Is there any scientific evidence that alertness is related to anything but the quantity of caffeine, regardless of whether it's delivered as black tea, mate tea, coffee, pills, etc.? Ass…

Yerba mate contains other stimulants as well, like red bull does. So yes caffeine = caffeine, but caffeineted drink!= caffeineted drink.

Yep, good point. Club Mate contains sugar as well.

The espresso I drink never contains sugar or milk.

The coca cola zero I drink doesn't contain sugar either.

I cannot stand the highs and lows of sugar. I notice it especially at birthday parties. I mean, its already boring... and them comes up of the sugar rush followed by a low where I start yawning and feeling sleepy. I so not wanna be there anymore at that point.

The general trick though, is dosages. You want to keep it stable when it matters, and at the end of the day wind down. Which means you do not want to drink caffeine drinks anymore in the evening.

For the rest, I can highly recommend mindfulness to help increase focus (but before I started it, I found it super annoying when someone suggested it and then I tried it myself and it didn't work out; so I am following a course on it, for people with autism). Meds can help out as well.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#124

Post by vidarh »

TheBeardKing wrote: post #118
krylon wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once spent a boring Sunday afternoon researching the alternatives on Wikipedia. As far as I could find out, they are illegal (Amphetamine), prescription-only (Modafinil) and/or very bad for your health (Methamphetamine). Amphetamine and Methamphetamine are also rather addictive and apparently quitting once you formed a habit is no fun. Ephedrine might be an alternative, but in Germany, it's prescription-only, and I…

I see a lot of Vitamin B6 being advertised for energy, is that all hype?

I don't think it's all hype, but there certainly is a lot of hype there, and most of the benefits will only come if you have a B-vitamin deficiency. Lots of people do, though, so there may be some benefit for quite a lot of people.

But on top of that, B-vitamin complex pills benefit from a lot of side-effects of high intake, including e.g. Niacin flushes and tingling effects, which I thin probably boost the perceived effect well beyond any actual effect.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#125

Post by Fnoord »

4rgento wrote: post #80
jillesvangurp wrote: post #19

Club mate is the drink of choice in the start up community in Berlin. I've made the mistake of drinking that in the evening a couple of times and regretted that at 4am by being wide awake and unproductive the next day. If you are not familiar, mate tea which this is based on contains a form of caffeine that is particularly potent. It's like drinking multiple espresso shots. Don't drink this if you have blood pressure…

Just another data point, but for me it's the opposite. I drink mate every morning becasue its effect is softer than that of coffee. I only drink coffee when I need extra alertness. Meditation can also increase your hability to be alert without resorting to drinks.

> Just another data point, but for me it's the opposite. I drink mate every morning becasue its effect is softer than that of coffee.

OP is on about Club Mate. A soda drink with mate.

Its not very good for the teeth, like other soda drinks (the acid, Co2, and sugar). Furthermore, tea is bad for keeping your teeth white. But other than the latter, normal yerba mate doesn't suffer from the other downsides soda has. Normal yerba mate doesn't contain acid, Co2, and sugar.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#126

Post by julian37 »

marpstar wrote: post #103
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #86

Anecdotally, water and sugar directly affect my alertness while using caffeine. If I don't have enough water I get headaches and can't think straight. If my blood sugar is low due to not eating enough, or eating too much sugar and "crashing" then I might as well be asleep, even though I can't from the caffeine. I may have missed it, but I don't see where they account for the diet of their test subjects.

another anecdotal story: I generally skip breakfast and lunch and do most of my eating after work. I find that the longer I fast the more I can focus, provided that I stay hydrated. I do use caffeine (almost exclusively black coffee) for alertness and appetite suppression.

IANAD (not a doctor) but just as a note of caution, I remember reading that eating one large meal a day rather than several smaller ones can have adverse consequences due to stress on the oesophageal sphincter. This study appears to come to that conclusion: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4223119/

(I'm not judging, I've been known to skip the odd meal here and there myself.)

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#127

Post by WhompingWindows »

_lbaq wrote: post #23

Caffeine is also linked to panic attacks, anxiety and sleep loss (and loss of quality of sleep), I would recommend staying off caffeine all together, having tried both, I by far more like working in the calmness of not having caffeine circulating in my body. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine-induced_anxiety_disor...

It's a CNS stimulant, those are sensibly some of its side effects. I'd say moderation of use is an effective way to limit those side effects, as the pros/cons tend to change the more used to caffeine the body becomes.

There is also a genetic variation in receptors/enzyme configurations, think of it like the global options/settings. One person may react quite differently due to slight changes in the shape of their receptor due to a different genetic allele.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#128

Post by Fnoord »

ekianjo wrote: post #42
_ak wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Germans used metamphetamine during World War 2. They gave it nicknames Panzerschokolade ("tank chocolate"), Stuka-Tabletten ("Stuka tablets"), Herman-Göring-Pillen, or Flieger-Marzipan ("pilot's marzipan"). It was freely available under the brand name "Pervitin" until 1941. From then on, you needed a prescription in order to purchase it.

The Japanese also had similar drugs in free circulation during ww2 if I remember correctly.

From what I understood it was used by kamikaze pilots (mainly the infamous Mitsubishi A6M Zero).

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#129

Post by marpstar »

julian37 wrote: post #126
marpstar wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

another anecdotal story: I generally skip breakfast and lunch and do most of my eating after work. I find that the longer I fast the more I can focus, provided that I stay hydrated. I do use caffeine (almost exclusively black coffee) for alertness and appetite suppression.

IANAD (not a doctor) but just as a note of caution, I remember reading that eating one large meal a day rather than several smaller ones can have adverse consequences due to stress on the oesophageal sphincter. This study appears to come to that conclusion: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4223119/ (I'm not judging, I've been known to skip the odd meal here and there myself.)

Interesting study. I do suffer GERD symptoms, but fasting hasn't seemed to have an effect on the severity of symptoms, though

I do notice particular things CAN give me GERD more often, particularly if I eat something high in sugar on an empty stomach, especially if I've had a lot of coffee that day. I need to have "real food" in my stomach before I can do candy, donuts, etc.

This is the primary reason I started skipping breakfast. I know, I know...donuts aren't an ideal breakfast, but they're hard to resist when someone brings them in the office and you don't remind yourself that you're going to suffer from heartburn all morning if you indulge.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#130

Post by ulisesrmzroche »

I drink about a gallon of caffeinated drinks a day, sometimes more. Am I the only one?

I don't have problems sleeping, headaches, or with fatigue. I look forward to the jitters; it actually cheers me up to know that soon I'll be so intense.

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