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Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

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Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#121

Post by Joe-Z »

roel_v wrote: post #115
austenallred wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly we'd be fine with 1-year degrees for most things.

Like what? Are you saying that most degrees, taught at universities today, could be condensed into 1 year, and the outcome would be that we'd have 19 year olds with the same skills as the 22 year olds graduating today? What degrees do you have in mind?

Well, I for one did a 3-year digital media / game development degree, but the bulk of our learning (programming, maths, foundations of game- and web-development and multi-media) was done with after the first year.

The rest was far more focused on project management, 'self-management', scientific writing and project work.

I wouldn't say you could replace all of that with a one-year degree, but you surely could offer a foundation course after which people are capable to go into industry and work on their practical skills. I guess that's kind of what these 'coding boot camps' are doing now (I don't really know much about them).

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#122

Post by hackerguy99 »

jstewartmobile wrote: post #46
loeg wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a tangential attack on the source, not the content. Please address the article, not the publisher.

It is not a tangent. The source is unreliable. If I must address the article, it is the same kind of ham-handed shilling I have come to expect from them. "Researchers" say this. "Researchers" say that. Then at the very bottom, regard: " Note: Working papers have not been peer-reviewed or been subject to review by the NBER Board of Directors that accompanies official NBER publications. " Scam the kids into college! Wa…

Ignore the content because of the source, straight out of the Donald Trump play book.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#123

Post by Consultant32452 »

roseburg wrote: post #86

I would simplify it and say that learning trade skills is a better investment for most people than attending a 4-year college. Trade skills can be learned at a young age, right from home, where there is room and time to explore and enjoy the learning process. Why we wait until after high school to teach kids in-demand skills boggles my mind. All the pressure in the world arrives after high school. It's time to start…

One thing that has really opened my mind on this is Amazon Home Services. Basically, if you're incorporated, insured, and can provide a few references proving you do decent work, Amazon will shovel business your way. And you can limit the services you provide. For example, one of the services you can buy on Amazon Home Services is "Door knob replacement." This is a VERY low level skill that requires only the most basic tools. The price in my zip code is $77. Amazon takes 20% off the top, so your business makes $61. By the time you include travel time, fuel, etc, you're probably making $20-30/hr doing ENTRY LEVEL labor.

And there's a ton of services you can offer through the AHS portal: home theatre setup, house cleaning, lawn maintenance, plumbing, computer repair, electrical etc.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#124

Post by walshemj »

MagnumOpus wrote: post #102
holydude wrote: post #88

Germany is the country that lost the battle but won the war. I am not saying Germany is not full of hard working and smart people but consider this. Germany wreaked havoc on its neighbors effectively killing huge % of their populations,destroying trillions of $ worth of infrastructure and industries and much more. Yet they only paid dimes to these countries because someone smart people decided they must be the balanc…

> Yet they only paid dimes to these countries You seem to have been taught a rather selective history. - Germany was forced to cede a quarter of its territory after WW2, to exactly the allied neighbouring countries in addition to the ones already ceded in WW1. In the east, Germans were ethnically cleansed from those areas. (The western parts were later given back to Germany because France and Netherlands found ethnic…

They also set up and funded VW which counters most of your arguments and also having to start from scratch meant that instead of using old machine tools the marshal plan helped retool germany

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#125

Post by Consultant32452 »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #25

I sometimes think, with deep regret, that most people living at or below the poverty line at 30, their chances of rising above that are quite low. At 40+ it's next to zero. This may also be very generous. The amount of education, training, and opportunities would have to line up perfectly for someone to pull themselves up. Multigenerational, the odds appear much better.

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/poverty/cb...

>While 29 percent of the nation's population was in poverty for at least two months between the start of 2004 and the end of 2006, only 3 percent were poor during the entire period.

Based on the actual data, your chances of getting out of poverty are quite GOOD.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#126

Post by Scea91 »

AstralStorm wrote: post #73
toasterlovin wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen it argued that the reason for this is that employers are prohibited from using intelligence tests to evaluate job applicants, so they use years of education as a proxy for intelligence.

Which it is not. Mostly it is a proxy for being able to deal with terrible bureaucracies (maybe useful?) and having enough money to live through it. (classist)

There is certainly a reasonable degree of correlation judging from the data I have observed around me.

But maybe it is different in my country because we have universities paid by taxes.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#127

Post by watwut »

MagnumOpus wrote: post #102
holydude wrote: post #88

Germany is the country that lost the battle but won the war. I am not saying Germany is not full of hard working and smart people but consider this. Germany wreaked havoc on its neighbors effectively killing huge % of their populations,destroying trillions of $ worth of infrastructure and industries and much more. Yet they only paid dimes to these countries because someone smart people decided they must be the balanc…

> Yet they only paid dimes to these countries You seem to have been taught a rather selective history. - Germany was forced to cede a quarter of its territory after WW2, to exactly the allied neighbouring countries in addition to the ones already ceded in WW1. In the east, Germans were ethnically cleansed from those areas. (The western parts were later given back to Germany because France and Netherlands found ethnic…

> Germany was forced to cede a quarter of its territory after WW2, to exactly the allied neighbouring countries in addition to the ones already ceded in WW1. In the east, Germans were ethnically cleansed from those areas. (The western parts were later given back to Germany because France and Netherlands found ethnic cleansing unpalatable.)

Then again, if you compare it with displaced Polish people and ethical cleansing both there and in Russia, both cleansing of Jews and non-Jewish citizens of those territories, the harm done to Germany is "just dimes to these countries" as parent puts it. Also, as bad as occupation of French was, Easter occupation was even more gloves off - as both Polish and others were ranked lower then French in racial hierarchy.

Of course displaced or killed Germans were often innocent. And of course future development of formerly occupied countries was harmed by Russia a lot. But, if you compare harm being done on that place, Germans did not paid former victims all that much. That might have been right decision, but it being right does not make it untrue.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#128

Post by olivermarks »

roel_v wrote: post #109
olivermarks wrote: post #107

I reacted strongly and positively to the headline of this piece...and even more positively to the article. Apprenticeship was once considered more important than academic degrees in many areas. The balance has gone too far towards academia, and blue collar 'workers' don't get nearly enough respect IMO

So what trade did you learn?

If you are asking me I was a graphic designer, mostly print work initially. It's a hybrid trade/skill set that gave me a good business grounding. I grew up in a generation where a lot of my peers in the UK were apprentices at Rolls Royce, Jaguar etc. I have no visibility into apprenticeships and how they are organized today...

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#129

Post by Consultant32452 »

olivermarks wrote: post #107

I reacted strongly and positively to the headline of this piece...and even more positively to the article. Apprenticeship was once considered more important than academic degrees in many areas. The balance has gone too far towards academia, and blue collar 'workers' don't get nearly enough respect IMO

I generally agree with you, but I'm always hesitant when I hear the word "apprenticeship." Because in my experience that usually means a union is stopping less experienced workers from undercutting their prices on the open market by forcing the less experienced worker to pay the union for the privilege of doing work. In this way it functions similarly to the way the college scheme works, only the college scheme is for white collar work rather than blue collar work.

Now, the word apprenticeship doesn't HAVE to mean that. In its simplest form it just means working with a more experienced person to get skills. That I definitely support. But if apprenticeship means stopping less skilled workers from entering the market on their own, I'm opposed to that.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#130

Post by criddell »

roseburg wrote: post #86

I would simplify it and say that learning trade skills is a better investment for most people than attending a 4-year college. Trade skills can be learned at a young age, right from home, where there is room and time to explore and enjoy the learning process. Why we wait until after high school to teach kids in-demand skills boggles my mind. All the pressure in the world arrives after high school. It's time to start…

> They get pressured to go to a 4 year school

You're not kidding. My kids are in high school and the pressure on them to go to college is nuts. They push it so hard that it makes me wonder if there's some kind of reward for the teachers based on the number of kids that go on to college.

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