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Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

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Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#41

I sometimes think, with deep regret, that most people living at or below the poverty line at 30, their chances of rising above that are quite low. At 40+ it's next to zero. This may also be very generous. The amount of education, training, and opportunities would have to line up perfectly for someone to pull themselves up. Multigenerational, the odds appear much better.

I agree, but I’d like to add my 2¢ and mention that it’s not impossible either. Skilled trades really are in short supply and the pay is still good.

My dad lost his job as a construction worker during the recession, in his 50s. At that age we knew it was going to be an uphill battle to continue to rely on his physical health for work much longer. So he hit the books while my mother continued to work part time, which allowed them to live off their savings longer at least.

Upon passing class and getting his license, I helped them bootstrap all the way through to his first customer. A simple website + a few hundred a month spent on google ads does wonders. My mother now spends her time answering customer emails/estimates/calls/paperwork and it’s has become a self sustaining machine, and I have stopped running their ad campaign (Running off the good reputation/reviews).

Now their biggest problem is finding enough skilled/trustworthy labor to complete their bids in a reasonable amount of time. As well as capex (still bootstrapped, which means expensive equipment rentals that eat heavily into margins)

I’m not tying to trivialize this, it was/is an insane amount of work with much to do before one can consider that “he made it”. Just pointing out that there is hope.

More details:

- Bay Area

-Parents speak English as a second language and only went to high school

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#42
The real question is how can we reduce the cost of education (or training) while simultaneously better aligning training with the most valuable careers.

Trade schools are much cheaper than college. In addition, we don’t have enough trained craftsmen.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#43

I sometimes think, with deep regret, that most people living at or below the poverty line at 30, their chances of rising above that are quite low. At 40+ it's next to zero. This may also be very generous. The amount of education, training, and opportunities would have to line up perfectly for someone to pull themselves up. Multigenerational, the odds appear much better.

I agree, but I’d like to add my 2¢ and mention that it’s not impossible either. Skilled trades really are in short supply and the pay is still good. My dad lost his job as a construction worker during the recession, in his 50s. At that age we knew it was going to be an uphill battle to continue to rely on his physical health for work much longer. So he hit the books while my mother continued to work part time, which…

What class did he take and what license did he get? I couldn’t figure it out from your comment.

Does being a contractor in SF require passing a class / license?

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#44
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but I’d like to add my 2¢ and mention that it’s not impossible either. Skilled trades really are in short supply and the pay is still good. My dad lost his job as a construction worker during the recession, in his 50s. At that age we knew it was going to be an uphill battle to continue to rely on his physical health for work much longer. So he hit the books while my mother continued to work part time, which…

What class did he take and what license did he get? I couldn’t figure it out from your comment. Does being a contractor in SF require passing a class / license?

Since this is a throwaway:

CSLB-C8 (Concrete contractor)

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#45

If people are going to make more money, where does the demand come from? Or is this about American manufacturers gaining market share from/in other countries? I don't know much about macroeconomics, so maybe this is a silly question.

There are five electricians in town, they each make $40/hour. They have a hard time finding qualified apprentices. After education, there are 7 electricians. The same 5 electricians still make $40/hour, but the two new electricians make $25/hour. Turns out there's a previously unserved market for a cheaper and less experienced electrician.

Or... there wasn't much of an unserved market, and all seven electricians make $30/hr.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#46
post #39

With the constant ads for mutual funds with outrageous up-yours fees for just tracking the S&P 500, the endless shilling and apologetics for investment banks and hedge funds, the perpetual armchair quarterbacking of the market by overpaid newsreaders who really wouldn't even be working there if they even halfway understood what they were talking about... why does anyone watch or even pay the slightest attention to wh…

This is a tangential attack on the source, not the content. Please address the article, not the publisher.

It is not a tangent. The source is unreliable.

If I must address the article, it is the same kind of ham-handed shilling I have come to expect from them.

"Researchers" say this. "Researchers" say that. Then at the very bottom, regard:

"Note: Working papers have not been peer-reviewed or been subject to review by the NBER Board of Directors that accompanies official NBER publications."

Scam the kids into college! Wait, no, scam them into trade school! Scam them into whatever lego shape industry thinks that it needs at the moment.

That, and the whole "Germany does this, Germany does that" angle is also highly disingenuous. Even skippy at CNBC knows good and well that Germany is a protected market, and that any kind of directed effort towards cranking out more tradesmen in the US of A is going to result in underemployed tradesmen and big discounts for the few places that actually employ them.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#48
It should be pretty obvious to anyone who has ever been to college that the model there isn't exactly one of "efficiency." My first two years were a good time, but if you're a 45-year-old man trying to get skilled as quickly as possible to put food on the table, taking three credits of Shakespeare just seems silly (and I absolutely adore Shakespeare). Not to mention the fact that the notion that you should decide what you want to do for the rest of your life when you're 18 and have never worked or experienced a job market just seems completely insane to me.

The fact of the matter is we're going to need widespread adult re-education, and the current four-years-at-18 model is woefully inadequate for the future that we can all see coming. In fact, the future that's here. Why can't I be prepared for a job in 6 months or one year? Can I take just the part of a college education that helps me be skilled?

IMO the blue collar jobs of the future will be many of the white collar jobs of today. I actually include "coding" in that. Relatively simple programming is something most people can learn to do relatively quickly, provides immediate value, and has rising demand (even the code bootcamps flooding the market still, somehow, leave huge gaps).

My company, Lambda School, (shameless plug, I suppose - YC S17 https://lambdaschool.com) is trying to solve some tiny portion of that by providing a live, online, skills-based education and job placement program that's completely free until you get a job. Soon it will be available entirely after hours. We've literally seen students go from applying at McDonalds to six-figure job offers; not because we're the best teachers in the world, but because they were already smart enough to become that person, they'd just never been given that opportunity, and for very practical reasons four years of college and expensive student loans were out of the question.

But we're still relatively expensive, still at the higher-skill-level-but-more-difficult end, and we can only cover a tiny portion of the market. In the next 10 years I hope there will be a booming industry of college alternatives that can get people placed, so long as they're not crushed by licensing and regulation (neither of which I think are a bad thing in proper amounts).

If you can move people from unemployed or minimum wage to regular living wage, the value created in that movement is enough that you can take a piece and everyone is way better off, and the cost of doing so is orders of magnitude less than college costs now. I really think we're going to enter a golden age of educational innovation, because the current system is broken enough folks are looking elsewhere. I would love to see someone do that at a serious kind of scale for high-paying trades: plumbing, welding, etc.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#49

With the constant ads for mutual funds with outrageous up-yours fees for just tracking the S&P 500, the endless shilling and apologetics for investment banks and hedge funds, the perpetual armchair quarterbacking of the market by overpaid newsreaders who really wouldn't even be working there if they even halfway understood what they were talking about... why does anyone watch or even pay the slightest attention to wh…

It's interesting to see how they approach these issues. Like how this article is about a gap in salaried income which is something we're expected to know all about already. There is the wealth gap, which is different. I thought that the differences in peoples salaries are but a mere speck of that issue as most of the top end wealth comes from dividends and inheritance. That would not be an educational issue.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#50
post #2

Remove the social stigma of not going to college. Hardly any tv shows that show young non college grads as positive.

>Remove the social stigma of not going to college. Hardly any tv shows that show young non college grads as positive. Or just make college useful and accessible. Give people the option of a European style undergrad where there is no liberal arts breadth, only technical courses. If we had accredited colleges doing 3 year bachelor degrees in STEM, the system would be much more efficient.

Honestly we'd be fine with 1-year degrees for most things.
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