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Sweden brings back military conscription

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#121

Post by samcodes »

entropyneur wrote: post #57

I am quite surprised by the number of people here (and even larger numbers elsewhere this is being discussed) who don't seem to have any ethical problem with conscription. Thought the idea of killer slaves was completely off limits in the West. Now all of a sudden we are debating cost effectiveness. Guess I thought wrong.

What western military doesn't pay service members? Pretty sure you mean "a job, that rarely, but sometimes involves killing." There are many jobs like that: policing, security, and depending on your moral framework, murdering animals.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#122

Post by vkou »

kaitnieks wrote: post #97
zilean wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whats wrong with RT in general (besides funding) and this article in particular? > It would be nice for Russia to have a swath from Crimea to Dontesk up through Latvia, just look at a map. Why take this land? It does nothing strategically, has population that you need to subsidise, etc. Crimea allows Black Sea control. Kaliningrad effectively makes Baltic inner sea for Russia and if there ever would be any baltic act…

Latvia has a population you need to subsidize? What do you mean by that?

When Russia occupied Crimea, Ukraine pulled out all support for the region's infrastructure. (Electricity, etc.) Quite naturally, Russia had to foot the bill to replace it.

The only way to get around that is to seize the entire country.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#123

Post by zilean »

mzs wrote: post #117
zilean wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whats wrong with RT in general (besides funding) and this article in particular? > It would be nice for Russia to have a swath from Crimea to Dontesk up through Latvia, just look at a map. Why take this land? It does nothing strategically, has population that you need to subsidise, etc. Crimea allows Black Sea control. Kaliningrad effectively makes Baltic inner sea for Russia and if there ever would be any baltic act…

connection via land to sea, later better positioned for potential Lithuania to Finland ops

Again, why take Lithuania to Finland? Whats the purpose?

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#124

Post by [deleted] »

muninn_ wrote: post #66
DamnYuppie wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need massive air and naval power to be very tough to attack. All you have to do is see the Afghan wars, both Russian and American, for great examples. They had no airforce and no need for naval forces. A large armed and mobile force is very able to put up solid resistance to pretty much anything you can throw at it save for nukes which will likely never be used.

Whatever military force was in Afghanistan never posed any sort of credible threat or resistance against the US military. The "resistance" that the US military faced came in terms of the US military wanting to try and recreate the society there, and having troops attacked while just driving around or facing resistance while conducting raids. If the US military wanted to, they could have easily destroyed every single…

[deleted]

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#125

Post by dragandj »

Kenji wrote: post #27
zmb_ wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>'if this isn't for you then you can go home' I did compulsory military service, including in a leadership role. "If you don't do what you're told, you don't get go home next weekend." Worked very well for conscripts, who usually get to go home for many weekends (unless on exercises). There are also many smaller privileges you can take a way for smaller infractions. Although when you have a defensive military that do…

>Now imagine you're a country with less than 10% of the population and need to produce a force of 200k soldiers in order to have a credible deterrent against an aggressive neighbor. How do you do that without conscription? Well... you PAY THEM (enough)? You make the workplace worthwhile and attractive, like you have to for every job ever? How do you get enough nurses? Policemen? Engineers? You conscript them all? Thi…

Heh, nice idea, pay them. With what money? Even Switzerland would have a really difficult time with that. The problem with small countries is that, well, they are small and poor. Even if you pay small wages, 200k is still a lot of paychecks, that has to be funded from taxes to the small population.

For the record, I am against military conscription.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#126

Post by vkou »

BurningFrog wrote: post #32
thearn4 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically Sweden has not been invaded in quite a long time, right?

Sweden is maybe the only country in the world that has no independence day.

Canada's Confederation day (July 1st, 1876) has nothing to do with Canadian independence (Which happened at the time that the Canada Act was signed by the British parliament - April 17, 1982.)

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#127

Post by rattray »

thedevil wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why Sweden would be concerned. I read Russian news/propaganda occasionally. Over the last few years, Russian news/propaganda prepared Russian minds for interfering in Ukraine. And the propaganda includes arguments to justify a military buildup. And it seems to be preparing Russian minds for a possible invasion of Baltic states one day. But I don't think I've even seen Sweden mentioned in Russian news/pro…

> And it seems to be preparing Russian minds for a possible invasion of Baltic states one day.

That's interesting; can you lend more color?

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#128

Post by Kenji »

yjgyhj wrote: post #74
Kenji wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is impossible. If I was conscripted, I would actively sabotage those who did this to me, just out of spite. I live in a country with conscription. Luckily, I was seen unfit for the army before it went that far.

I felt that way when I was called in for evaluation as a teenager. I was a peace loving left-wing Swedish boy. That was maybe 8 years ago or so, I remember conscription being scrapped a year or two later. I regret not making an effort to do it. I chose to underperform in my test because I believed all is better than war. But as an adult I've changed, and realised I wouldn't quite mind dying for things like my languag…

>I felt that way when I was called in for evaluation as a teenager.

I am no pacifist. I definitely subscribe to the non-aggression principle, but a defensive war is always justified. I'd die for certain things I believe in, too. I just wanna decide that for myself and serve when I want. How dare the state make this decision for me.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#129

Post by chocolatebunny »

samcodes wrote: post #121
entropyneur wrote: post #57

I am quite surprised by the number of people here (and even larger numbers elsewhere this is being discussed) who don't seem to have any ethical problem with conscription. Thought the idea of killer slaves was completely off limits in the West. Now all of a sudden we are debating cost effectiveness. Guess I thought wrong.

What western military doesn't pay service members? Pretty sure you mean "a job, that rarely, but sometimes involves killing." There are many jobs like that: policing, security, and depending on your moral framework, murdering animals.

The mandatory part of it is the problem.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#130

Post by mlmlmasd »

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

> What do you do with a conscript who never wanted to be there and possibly fundamentally isn't suited to military life anyway gives up? Threaten them with legal action?

In some countries, you will get punished - get assigned bathroom cleaning for a week, get assigned lots of manual labor, or your whole squad gets punished which means they will have reason to 'motivate' you themselves. You can also go to military jail and get dishonorable discharged.

Basically, there is the carrot motivation method, and then there is the stick method.

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