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Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

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Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#121

Post by tluyben2 »

blawson wrote: post #53
cheriot wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're giving away another reason. In general, Americans don't value high quality food. A croissant is a croissant to us. Tyler Cowan wrote an interesting book speculating why. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GSYYQ2/

I think by that logic no one values high quality food? A croissant in Paris is probably about 2 euros as well. If we both agree the French tend to do croissants better, and care about it more, so how come theirs don't cost significantly more?

The price comparison is a bit weird there; there are some of the best croissants and baguettes by very small cheap shops in France while you pay a lot more for a nasty piece of 'doughy thing' in Starbucks for something that has the same name. That is incidentally another comparison where this falls flat; when my American friends visit, they insist on Starbucks every day. Not only is the coffee and the food better next door to it, it is far cheaper. Of course that is a matter of taste, but that is not the reason why my friends want to go to Starbucks; they find it familiar. Once I get them to go into a local small family run place, they don't go the rest of the stay to Starbucks however when they come back they seem to have forgotten the small place.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#122

Post by et-al »

ufo wrote: post #35
harryh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is definitely some evidence for this hypothesis. If you read about the restaurant industry you'll see a lot of comments from restauranteurs that seem to indicate that they think the salary ratios between FOH and BOH staff are off. We've had a couple of restaurants in NYC go tip free, instead building the cost of service into the base cost of menu items. Unfortunately it appears that this can be a challenge beca…

Are tips required by law to go to the FOH staff or could a restaurant split the tips between the FOH and BOH staff (assuming the staff agrees to it)?

Nope. It's called tip out, and in my experience it's been 3-4% of my total sales going to the other staff (sometimes 4% of only the liquor sales to the bar). Othertimes, it has been a percentage of my tips themselves (~30%: 10 bar, 10 runner, 10 bussers, I think.. been years).

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#123

Post by steveax »

in_cahoots wrote: post #23
hughes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. With software development it's a little different - it's entirely possible for a more…

I'm not sure that your two scenarios are as different as you suggest. An expensive pastry chef may produce fewer pastries (I don't see why it would be more expensive otherwise if the ingredients are the same), but the higher quality may also yield more sales. I can bake you a muffin, but you definitely wouldn't want to pay for it. For the second scenario, most companies don't need the mythical 10x programmer. The cor…

Also, consistency. Producing high quality baked goods that are consistent is not an easy task. Applies to endeavors like brewing beer too. I think most good artisans are pretty severely undervalued in the US.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#124

Post by steveax »

sosborn wrote: post #110
emodendroket wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really find it hard to believe that a more experienced pastry chef can make better pastries? I think this is the same frustrating myopia that makes people assume they all could easily write software the way you do except in reverse.

The real value of an experienced chef is in the creation and perfection of a recipe. Once that is achieved, a less experienced chef can churn the pastries out indefinitely - assuming they stick to the recipe.

It's not that easy. Ambient temperatures change, humidity levels, flour retains more moisture. Small changes in these things can make huge differences in the finished goods. A skilled baker will read these factors and adjust.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#125

Post by carterehsmith »

wfo wrote: post #109
carterehsmith wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be honest. Making pastry is not really hard. You can spend 30 minutes learning on youtube, and you will be able to make some basic pastry. It will not be glorious but it might be edible. Otherplace in this thread somebody was quoting some pastry chef claiming that "it takes months" to learn to do cupcakes or whatever. That "months" is a definition of low-skill job. Which is why pastry chefs have minimum-wage sa…

Let's be honest. Writing code is not really hard. You can spend 30 minutes watching youtube videos and learn how to write basic code. It won't be glorious but it will work. The arrogance is bleeding out of the text itself, I'm not even sure how that's possible but it's happening.

I am not saying that pastry chefs and baristas are useless.

What I am saying is that, according to industry data, any random person can be trained to the degree of 'pastry chef' of 'barista' with something like several weeks of training.

And that is basically indistinguishable from 'no-skill worker'.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#126

Post by carterehsmith »

emodendroket wrote: post #111
carterehsmith wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be honest. Making pastry is not really hard. You can spend 30 minutes learning on youtube, and you will be able to make some basic pastry. It will not be glorious but it might be edible. Otherplace in this thread somebody was quoting some pastry chef claiming that "it takes months" to learn to do cupcakes or whatever. That "months" is a definition of low-skill job. Which is why pastry chefs have minimum-wage sa…

I feel like if it were really that easy there wouldn't be any need for the elaborate system of culinary schools and apprenticeships at restaurants that teach high-level versions of these skills.

I just want to say that there is a misconception here. 'Chef' indeed needs to go to school and may take years to earn the title. 'Pastry chef' is not a 'chef'. There is no culinary school involved, or required to be pastry chef.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#127

Post by clarkmoody »

ensignavenger wrote: post #6

Maybe because they are only in demand at the current price point, but as soon as the price goes up, people switch to 'substitute goods'?

I wouldn't expect the New York Times to bring solid economic reasoning to bear on its journalism any time soon.

Thanks for doing so here so concisely.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#128

Post by carterehsmith »

wavefunction wrote: post #108
carterehsmith wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be honest. Making pastry is not really hard. You can spend 30 minutes learning on youtube, and you will be able to make some basic pastry. It will not be glorious but it might be edible. Otherplace in this thread somebody was quoting some pastry chef claiming that "it takes months" to learn to do cupcakes or whatever. That "months" is a definition of low-skill job. Which is why pastry chefs have minimum-wage sa…

I have to disagree with you completely. From your first line to your last, I can't disagree more or more strongly. "Edible" is not a sufficient performance by a decent amateur baker, let alone a pastry chef who likely also knows things quite intimately beyond cupcakes like working with sugar and various frostings, fondants, meringues, flans, pies, tarts, cakes, puddings and custards and so on... When you add that to…

Dude. You bought, hooker and sink, some bullshit ad from the local 'artisanal bakery'.

Sorry but there are no 10-generation artisans labouring endlessly to bring you your $5 cupcake. Its just 15-year old kids working to get some money towards college.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#129

Post by lamontcg »

The problem here is the Restaurant industry. Overall, its not growing like high tech is growing. While even the article notes:

“Restaurants are being built much faster than I can produce professionals.”

That sounds like it'd be good for "professionals", but when you think about the industry that sounds bad for "restaurants".

That means higher competition between restaurants for the consumer's food dollar. The wages to pay the professionals come from those food dollars.

Without people willing to pay substantially more for food there isn't the cash going into the industry to be able to give raises to the professionals (anyone here willing to shell out $25 every day for the best latte in the world, or will you stick with $4 starbucks or brew your own?).

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