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Oracle and the fall of Java EE

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Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#121

Post by shadowmint »

geodel wrote: post #108
shadowmint wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue here is the hostility of the go community historically to pretty much any kind of criticism on pretty much any front. (want generics? too bad! don't like the syntax for [thing]? too bad! want a framework? you're doing it wrong! want to test without using actual sending network traffic? BAM! 50 downvotes on SO for 'poor question'. Got some feedback and post it to golang nuts? HA! Prepare to be shoute…

How did it become good? Has generics been added? or syntax changed? or framework comes bundled with Go? Seems all example you gave are some libraries being written which shouldn't be big deal.

I'm talking about the community, which has tangibly improved.

There are also technical improvements (as I mentioned) and frameworks (as I mentioned). What more do you want?

Generics? No. You still can't have those.

Different syntax? No. You still can't have that.

...but maybe, now, if you go and talk to people about it, they won't flip the table about it, and you can have a conversation about it with folks on the gopher slack where everyone is reasonable and thoughtful both about legitimate concerns and future directions for change.

In my oppinion, that's a big deal...

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#122

Post by krylon »

geodel wrote: post #42

Java EE is described by some as old, heavy, over engineered technology as opposed to Java SE + simple servlet containers with some Spring or other 'lightweight' frameworks. However in my opinion there is something about Java/Java designers at Sun/Oracle/IBM that lead to over designed APIs and code. Looking at just Java servlet api, it is described in most elaborate manner. It is not about supporting Http Listeners en…

About eight years ... nine years ago, I was between jobs and thought I might use the large amounts of free time I had at my hands to learn something that might improve my chances of finding a new job. Lots of companies use Java EE, right?

So I downloaded the JDK, Glassfish and a PDF of a book called "The Java EE tutorial" from Sun.

I found it slightly disturbing that Glassfish (or was it JBoss? It was so long ago...) used ~400-450 MB of RAM before I had done anything to it.

And then I started reading the so-called tutorial. The fact that it had ~1100 pages should have tipped me of, but it did not frighten me. When I looked and the Table of Contents, however, which came with a freaking flow chart on how to navigate your way through the book depending on what you already knew, I ran away screaming. ;-)

And to be fair, in my brief attempt to learn C++ I, too, looked at my first slightly-nontrivial-toy-program when it was finished and found it incredibly over-engineered. So I know how easy it can be to give in to that temptation.

Also, there is this old saying that a given piece of software will reflect the organizational structure that created it, if large corporations send hordes of programmers to attack such a problem as creating Java EE or the servlet API, it is not a surprising result.

In a way, .Net has the same problem, to a degree. I have not used it much, but one of my first toy programs was an address book that got its data from the Active Directory, and the LDAP API was significantly more complex than, say, Net::LDAP in Perl. Not unusable, but the difference is noteworthy.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#123

Post by y4mi »

chvid wrote: post #85
vetinari wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the above malware comments, what exactly does "Install Java" mean? You cannot redistribute the installer or the installed files. Except other things it means, you cannot make a docker image with java app and redistribute it. Everyone has to download their own java installer and build images themselves.

I don't understand where you have this information from. Plenty of software comes with Java embedded - ie. IntelliJ Idea. Last time I installed Java was on a digital ocean remote box and I did it through apt-get. Java may have some licensing that cause some open source system distributions not to include it but that is really their game.

yes, you can install open jre through repos.

most applications put "oracle jre" in their dependencies though.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#124

Post by hitr »

huherto wrote: post #84
bradleyjg wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how difficult it would be to port C# to the jvm. It really is a better language. There are some parts of the standard library that are better in java, but overall I'd say C# is better there too.

Care to list what the C## language has that the Java Language doesn't? I guess, you don't miss what you don't know.

I have worked on both languages and I have not disliked anything about java.Not here to start a flame war. I heard many times from who have extensively worked on both that supports for generics in c# is far superior than java.And obviously LINQ goodness and async\await comes to mind

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#125

Post by krylon »

huherto wrote: post #76

I dislike Oracle as a company. I whish Sun had been acquired by Google instead. But the Java ecosystem is awesome. The language is great, the JVM is great. As long as you know what you are doing.

As far as I remember, Google was not even interested in buying Sun (at least not wholesale). The other company that was engaged in negotiations was IBM, which could have gone either way, I guess, if they had bought Sun.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#126

Post by thanatropism »

spriggan3 wrote: post #57
thanatropism wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly OOP's shortcomings. c2 wiki will lead you to much discussion on how "design patterns" are a band-aid patch for the deep, deep problems with massive OOP projects.

The problem isn't OOP, OOP's fine. The problem is how Java implemented Objects in a fairly rigid way which led to all this insane boilerplate. Furthermore design patterns aren't tied to OOP. And finally design patterns =/= JEE patterns .

There are about as many definitions of OOP as there are programming languages.

I'm not a software developer and have no dog in this fight. Sometimes I use Matlab's idea of OOP to factor out code by domain of representation (so simulations of agricultural yields are instances of a LandUnit object with some properties and one or two methods); never to abstract programming out the way OOP design patterns do.

I'm more attracted to the Haskell style of types and type classes, as far as "abstracting progrmaming out" goes, but I don't do any programming in the large, so what the hell do I know. I just pointed to the debate between people who should know, c2 wiki is very good on the things I do know.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#127

Post by geodel »

nix0n wrote: post #66
hyperpallium wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enterprises dislike unnecessary change, so they wouldn't abandon java even if there was a technically more suitable alternative - they stuck with COBOL long after C was established. They will stick with java for a LONG time, not for a good time. Yet, java was (as someone recently disparagingly put it) "designed by adults". By people familiar with state of the art language research, what was needed and workable, compr…

Can Java EE be developed on OpenJDK? Can OpenJDK create a fork of the whole Java ecosystem when Oracle wrecks it?

I think the fundamental issue which many people do not want to admit is that Oracle puts humongous money in Java and Java EE(in past at least). Without that all the Java activists and Java EE guardians etc are unlikely to ship large working products like new versions of Java/JavaEE.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#128

Post by pkaye »

shadowmint wrote: post #94
voidlogic wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Go doesn't have the guts to replace Java, because of the hostile mindset of its community when it comes to writing reusable, general purpose libraries. the famous "you don't need that with Go" is something pushed by go maintainers themselves. Go has a pretty comprehensive stdlib. And a huge and growing community of 3rd party libraries. I left .NET and Java for Go around 0.9 and since then I have seen Go flower into…

I think the issue here is the hostility of the go community historically to pretty much any kind of criticism on pretty much any front. (want generics? too bad! don't like the syntax for [thing]? too bad! want a framework? you're doing it wrong! want to test without using actual sending network traffic? BAM! 50 downvotes on SO for 'poor question'. Got some feedback and post it to golang nuts? HA! Prepare to be shoute…

Can you tell me what is the issue with SetDeadline()?

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#129

Post by geodel »

specialist wrote: post #59
mohaine wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

# 3. Java EE is legacy tech. While deeply entrenched, most of the work out there for it today consists of maintenance or migration to more service-friendly approaches like Spring or Dropwizard. While I mostly agree with you, Spring _IS_ J2ee based. (i.e. Servlets/JAX-RS both part of J2ee). Sure it doesn't use EJB but I don't think anybody does (non legacy) at this point.

Java EE is just a collection of libraries. JMS, JNDI, etc. Said mostly in humor (from long suffering): The distinction between J2EE and Spring is pretty simple. EJB is a data persistence obfuscation library, whereas Spring's DI/IoC "framework" is an exception (stack trace) obfuscation library.

Thank you. Maybe you don't know but you have given very apt description of Java land frameworks.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#130

Post by hinkley »

hyperpallium wrote: post #50
StevePerkins wrote: post #9

Amen. Be it Hacker News, or the /r/java subreddit, or wherever, it feels like the bulk of Java chatter revolves around... 1. Security vulnerabilities 2. The Ask.com toolbar 3. Oracle abandoning Java EE ... which is extremely frustrating because... 1. Virtually all of the "security vulnerabilities" deal with the browser plugin for using applets, which hasn't been widely used in 15 years 2. The toolbar malware, while s…

Enterprises dislike unnecessary change, so they wouldn't abandon java even if there was a technically more suitable alternative - they stuck with COBOL long after C was established. They will stick with java for a LONG time, not for a good time. Yet, java was (as someone recently disparagingly put it) "designed by adults". By people familiar with state of the art language research, what was needed and workable, compr…

I was an early Java adopter. And as much as I'm convinced that Larry Ellison hunts humans for sport, the fact of the matter is that Sun got dazzled by bullshit long before Oracle got their mits on it.

The truth is, J2EE 1.0 was not designed by grown ups. It was designed by college kids and academics who ironically enough wouldn't know the 8 fallacies of network computing if it but them on the ass.

Because it DID bite them on the ass and we have nearly 5 years of vendors flaunting and then polluting the spec to prove it.

Then we have Josh Bloch, who everyone but me thinks is great, who introduced Duck Typing to the JDK (MethodNotImplementedException) and only later confessed that he couldn't understand variance. People defend their bad code by pointing to similar code in the JDK, and Bloch stunted the growth of an entire generation of developers. Then repeated the exact same mistakes at Google.

Me, I'm waiting for a language that Bloch had nothing to do with, and I want to get back to working in limited resource environments. My eye is on Rust right now, and I have my fingers crossed.

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