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This is not a place of honor

wipp.energy.gov

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Re: This is not a place of honor

#121

Post by kbart »

jtolmar wrote: post #119

Contrary to many of the comments here, I think they did a good job of considering what it takes to make something foreboding without sounding like "here be treasure." The pseudo-mystical messages sound hokey, but they're effectively a backup system in case the straight-up "This is atomic waste, here's a description of atomic waste" descriptions are incomprehensible to future generations. And the more primitive commun…

"Additionally, I don't think the "no marker, anonymous patch of ground" plan is sound. 10000 years is a long time, which will hopefully be inhabited by peoples more advanced than us, and they could do a lot of digging in that time."

If these people are more advanced, there's no point to teach them the dangers of radiation as they will be well aware of that already.

Re: This is not a place of honor

#122

Post by phpnode »

periphrasis wrote: post #19
stonogo wrote: post #3

If their goal was to create a hokey-sounding quasi-spiritual ward that future generations will consider naive and ignore, they've certainly hit the nail on the head. Probably a better approach is to accept the fact that nuclear waste will either be cleaned up or destroy humanity long before ten thousand years comes to pass, and spend the money they spent on this exercise in speculative fiction instead on working towa…

Admittedly, I haven't read the article, but the tone of the message suggests that it's not meant for future generations of our civilization, but for future generations of whatever cultures come after our civilization is gone. There's a pretty remarkable old English poem that survived from Dark Ages Britain, in which the author marvels at the ruins of Roman Britain, wondering what giants must have once inhabited the l…

Do you have a link to that poem?

Re: This is not a place of honor

#123

Post by knorby »

topspin wrote: post #77
dbrower wrote: post #30

I've read the report several times (it keeps coming back every 5-7 years or so) since publication, and I've never felt like a reliable solution had wither been found, or was in the offing. There is good thinking, but the problem itself seems very daunting. I think that is the real lesson.

This has been haunting the news since the early '80s and it will go on for several more decades. Then, after whatever they finally come up with is constructed, there will be a creepy spectacle about which to write more tired news stories. It has always seemed a waste of effort to me. If some primitive post-dystopian human were to dig hundreds of meters through salt (!) and come into contact with the waste they would…

The funny thing about the horrible post-dystopian future scenario is how many far greater nuclear threats could exist. Assuming the cause of said horrible future isn't caused by nuclear war already, what would happen to all the more potent nuclear material and weapons scattered about? These places are comparatively quite accessible, and the sites communicate that the objects are highly valued. You're right, focusing on the wrong things.

Re: This is not a place of honor

#124

Post by duckingtest »

I don't want to sound evil... but why? It's not like digging up low-intensity radioactive waste is going to end the world. Just look at how alive Chernobyl zone is... So let's say some people bring it up, they get sick and die, which makes people remember that radioactivity symbol = bad for the next several hundred years or so.

On a related note, wouldn't it make more sense to turn the radioactive waste into powder and dump it over a large area of sea or desert (Sahara is HUGE)? Given a large enough area it wouldn't even be detectable.

Re: This is not a place of honor

#125

Post by [deleted] »

andrewflnr wrote: post #69
kordless wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have one computer that has been running (with help) for 8 years. That's a record for me. 10K years is a really long time to keep a computer running. Who's going to do that, other than more computers?

That is indeed the trick, but who said anything about computers? Mechanical sound reproduction, even specifically using electricity, predates computers. I see no reason it couldn't post-date them in this application, as well. You would want to build the system out of simple, indestructible components, something closer in complexity to an electric doorbell than a computer.

[deleted]

Re: This is not a place of honor

#126

Post by pmontra »

bobbles wrote: post #44
Aelinsaar wrote: post #17

It's a fascinating problem, a way to communicate the concept that this is not a treasure trove, not a historical site, but something dangerous that was meant to be sealed away for many thousands of years due to its hazardous nature. The parting thoughts seem most telling to me thought. They wonder if this really worth it, since in the end coming into contact with the waste is a bit of a self-limiting problem, in that…

All I can picture is an Indiana Jones like situation, where everything that would be done to protect the site will just be interpreted as something valuable being stored in the most dangerous section.

I can picture what people do when told "I give you this box but you must not open it".

Re: This is not a place of honor

#127

Post by willvarfar »

colanderman wrote: post #20
amk_ wrote: post #2

Holy shit. Dieter Ast was my landlord in college. This explains so much about my basement. To those who haven't read the article yet, the real title is Judgment on Markers to Deter Inadvertent Human Intrusion into the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant. Prof Ast was the material scientist on one of the multidisciplinary teams tasked to design warning symbols for 10,000 year nuclear waste storage sites. He used to go around…

… your basement was plastered with iconographic warnings against entering due to interminable life-ending substances contained within? … did you enter ?

And was there one saying "beware of the leopard"?

Re: This is not a place of honor

#129

Post by bbcbasic »

labster wrote: post #23

It's really interesting to me to see architecture used for its typical antithesis. It is typically used to bring a sense of bring out positive emotions, to inspire, to bring facility to humanity, to sanctify. Here it is being used to desecrate, to decrease utility, to ward away. As a hacker, I'm used to the thought of "what is the worst possible way I can make this UI", but it's cool to see it applied in an entirely…

I don't have to think too hard to make a bad UI. It comes naturally.

Re: This is not a place of honor

#130

Post by bbcbasic »

morgante wrote: post #49
labster wrote: post #23

It's really interesting to me to see architecture used for its typical antithesis. It is typically used to bring a sense of bring out positive emotions, to inspire, to bring facility to humanity, to sanctify. Here it is being used to desecrate, to decrease utility, to ward away. As a hacker, I'm used to the thought of "what is the worst possible way I can make this UI", but it's cool to see it applied in an entirely…

> It is typically used to bring a sense of bring out positive emotions I'm not quite sure about that. Lots of architecture is used to intimidate, to signal power and that you should be afraid.

Definitely the Nazi* architecture does that. I remember seeing thee very intimidating military towers in Berlin. It was like the tower wanted to start a war itself. (*Yes I said the magic word, it is now one of THOSE threads!)
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