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Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

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Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#121
post #71

I recently applied for a position at Etsy, and one of the main points I make in my self summary is that I am most motivated by craftsmanship and an attention to quality (I think a lot of developers feel this way, and more should practice speaking up about it for interviews). I was told I would have a phone interview with someone from the hiring team. Weeks went by and I got zero response. I figured I had just been re…

Why wouldn't internal candidates have been vetted prior to spending time on the application process and phone interviews with others?

It could be that the internal process started simultaneously, just that the internal candidate "grabbed the thread", and either the HR contact wasn't informed, or didn't think / wasn't coached to notify the external candidates as to the change in status. Until they went back to clean up their inbox.

"What on earth is going on inside Etsy? What are they doing?"

I've come to accept that even when all parties involved have the best of intentions, the workflow of candidate vetting, combined with the inherent game theoretic aspects[1] of finding the best available candidate on the market (when one generally has no idea what market looks like until one has churned through a goodly number of candidates), all come together to make the process more complex (and time consuming) than people generally anticipate.

Unfortunately what gets added to this is that seldom do people stop to think, "Wait, if we don't treat ALL candidates nicely during the process, that means the good ones won't apply again. And they won't recommend their friends to apply to join us, either." And so, "Maybe we should put a little more thought into candidate experience, and make a point of treating them better."

Again, this is under the best of circumstances, and assuming that the parties involve seem to have put some degree of thought into, and to have some sense of discipline behind their vetting and communication process. Sadly, this isn't very often the case.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stable_marriage_problem

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#122

I am sympathetic to the distinction. I had a bunch of applicants for a position claiming to be "Distributed Systems Engineers" mostly because they'd stood-up, maintained, and or used a Hadoop or Spark cluster in their current or prior job. But to me that was more of an advanced (one hopes) end-user. Someone who could take a bunch of large, mostly-complete logical components that somebody else engineered and then use…

What I was looking for wasn't somebody who knew how to use something like HDFS. I was looking for someone who could build something as good or better than HDFS from nothing if they had to. Did you try articulating that distinction in your job ads? Or if not, can you really blame people for applying when your ads read like 99% of help wanted ads in the fin-de-boom era; like, you know: We've got the coolest office in t…

I did. To the point that I, after lobbying for the permission to do so, removed every single mention of any technology or stack-a-mabob buzzword and phrase from every single open listing my team had out.

There was some consternation over it because the recruiting staff didn't know how to go find people based on this new buzzword-free criteria, so I helped them to identify where to look, and persuaded them not to be the one to contact them & let that be the responsibility of one of the people already on my team.

It eventually worked.

Also, be fully aware I'm not holding the discrepancy against the applicants. It's not their fault. They're getting signals from the marketplace that they should call themselves a "Distributed Systems Engineer". I'm holding this problem against the institutional forces that are giving these people the signals to describe themselves this way to begin with. Because it makes it much harder to find one when you actually need one.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#123
post #34

His distinction between 'engineer' and 'developer' is artificial and easily criticized. That isn't what is interesting in this article. There are a lot of things that are. Their method for avoiding the proliferation of different tools is interesting. His discussion of the kind of people they want, once you ignore the semantics, is interesting. They want people who take responsibility and are always pushing the bounda…

I agree that the use of the 'engineer' vs 'developer' terms in his context was not important. What does irk me is that in real life, software developers who meet the Etsy CTO's standard often can't call themselves engineers. In many countries, misrepresenting oneself as an engineer without accreditation is against the law! [1] In the U.S., there's no official occupational category for Software Engineer. It's just Sof…

[deleted]

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#125
post #71

I recently applied for a position at Etsy, and one of the main points I make in my self summary is that I am most motivated by craftsmanship and an attention to quality (I think a lot of developers feel this way, and more should practice speaking up about it for interviews). I was told I would have a phone interview with someone from the hiring team. Weeks went by and I got zero response. I figured I had just been re…

I interviewed with Etsy for an internship position last year. After the on-site was finished, our group of interns was told we'd hear back within a few days (but likely the very next day.) After two weeks of silence, I emailed them asking if they had an update or a new timeline and was told they'd get back to me in a week or so. This happened two or three more times over the next couple months, until I eventually gave up. Like you, I was more confused than anything. Either way, I can't really say I recommend interviewing with them.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#126
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the use of the 'engineer' vs 'developer' terms in his context was not important. What does irk me is that in real life, software developers who meet the Etsy CTO's standard often can't call themselves engineers. In many countries, misrepresenting oneself as an engineer without accreditation is against the law! [1] In the U.S., there's no official occupational category for Software Engineer. It's just Sof…

I'm curious why it irks you. There is actually software engineers. At the U of A, where I went, Software Engineering is separate than Computing Science. Software Engineering was run by the Engineering department, and they had the same rigours as the rest of engineering has. However, Computing Science was run by the Science department.

Note that, even though you can get a Software Engineering degree from the U of A, your likelihood of ever qualifying for your PEng is next to nil.

In 99.99% of software jobs in the Canadian or US job markets you're simply never going to be able to accumulate enough eligible hours in your 6 year EIT eligibility period, because of the way APEGA defines things. Software jobs where you're supervised by a P.Eng., as required by APEGA, are likewise virtually unheard of.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#127
post #34

His distinction between 'engineer' and 'developer' is artificial and easily criticized. That isn't what is interesting in this article. There are a lot of things that are. Their method for avoiding the proliferation of different tools is interesting. His discussion of the kind of people they want, once you ignore the semantics, is interesting. They want people who take responsibility and are always pushing the bounda…

Programming is a liberal art. As in: it involves language and explication of processes. The amount of actual engineering involved in making a successful application (like Etsy) is actually quite low. The amount of clear code that focuses relentlessly on the mission at hand (an admittedly squishy metric — after all, that's the nature of art) also seems to be quite low in the typical application, but naturally needs to be much higher.

For instance just putting a platform like Etsy entirely on Google App Engine would allow Etsy to focus on the liberal arts side of the problem. Because GAE "solves" most all the engineering problems that typically have plagued software practices on the web...

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#128
post #85
post #71

I recently applied for a position at Etsy, and one of the main points I make in my self summary is that I am most motivated by craftsmanship and an attention to quality (I think a lot of developers feel this way, and more should practice speaking up about it for interviews). I was told I would have a phone interview with someone from the hiring team. Weeks went by and I got zero response. I figured I had just been re…

It's probably some poorly implemented HR policy that if there's a job opening they still have to publicly post it even if there's someone internally who fits the bill and wants it. I ran into something similar at my first job out of college (which was a shitty place to work in many ways). There was a job opening, they posted it, and even as an existing employee they wouldn't interview me for it because they already h…

Yup. I saw this happen at my last company. They knew exactly who they wanted to hire internally but were under pressure to recruit externally so went through the rigmarole of advertising, interviewing and rejecting people only to give the job to the person they were already pretty much decided upon.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#129
post #115
post #34

His distinction between 'engineer' and 'developer' is artificial and easily criticized. That isn't what is interesting in this article. There are a lot of things that are. Their method for avoiding the proliferation of different tools is interesting. His discussion of the kind of people they want, once you ignore the semantics, is interesting. They want people who take responsibility and are always pushing the bounda…

Will I be rewarded for responsibility of imperfect things? Will the company provide compensation and the necessary environment (trial equipment and software) for training to push the boundary of my knowledge?

How much time out of each day will be dedicated towards "pushing new boundaries of knowledge"?

When large projects squeeze into tight deadlines, how much of that boundary pushing will be abandoned in favor of shipping things?

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