Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's probably some poorly implemented HR policy that if there's a job opening they still have to publicly post it even if there's someone internally who fits the bill and wants it. I ran into something similar at my first job out of college (which was a shitty place to work in many ways). There was a job opening, they posted it, and even as an existing employee they wouldn't interview me for it because they already h…
But what was weird is that they did go through a non-trivial amount of the initial interview process with me, then became silent for 3 weeks, and then said that they had an internal candidate. (It sounded to me like the internal candidate applied for the role after my first interview, but I can't say for sure). That's why it struck me as so strange.
Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers
91–100 of 160 posts
Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers
#92And are you willing to pay your "software engineers" what they are worth? because that's often the issue at end. Plenty of good "engineers". Not that many startup willing to pay them fairly. You want the best people but you don't want to pay them the "best" money? you get what you pay for.
I think a lot of engineers are motivated by other things. By contrast I think a lot of "bootcampers" are looking for a salary pop.
Sure, but it doesn't mean good engineers don't know what they are worth. If Etsy has hard time recruiting "engineers", Etsy should ask themselves what kind of deal they are offering in order to attract the profile they seek and not write a blog that dismiss "developers" as inferior. Because it reads like "if you're a developer stop applying", well if Etsy wants something else, or Etsy feels like it's not getting "the best of the best", it's Etsy's problem and what they offer, not the candidates.
Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
But what was weird is that they did go through a non-trivial amount of the initial interview process with me, then became silent for 3 weeks, and then said that they had an internal candidate. (It sounded to me like the internal candidate applied for the role after my first interview, but I can't say for sure). That's why it struck me as so strange.
Sometimes the job posting is done for the reason of renewing a worker's visa. Maybe showing there was some real action taken towards considering other candidates (15 minute phone screen) helps cover their ass in case the government comes knocking on their door.
The most egregious interview hassle I had was with a large insurance company based in Connecticut. They had me do 1 HR phone call and then a difficult 1-hour technical phone interview. After that interview they gave me a lot of positive feedback and said they wanted to proceed, but then pressured me heavily that in order to proceed past that point, they needed a lot of specifics about my desired salary. Foolishly, I agreed to share, thinking that I didn't want to miss the chance for additional interviews.
I did not hear a word of reply from them for months, at least 4 months. Then, out of nowhere, I received what was clearly an automated email sent to many people, which said basically the following:
"Thank you for participating in our exploratory market survey for the role of 'Data Scientist' -- regretfully, we have decided to move the company in a different direction and so the position will not be filled."
That dramatically changed my perspective about how to approach job interviews, how to relentlessly avoid ever sharing salary data, etc.
Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That's because it's not engineering as a recognized discipline (and seems to be the reason why we can get away with calling ourselves engineers and not be sued). I'm consistently surprised at how little programmers/developers and software engineers are aware of the progress made here over the past 5 years. Software engineering most definitely is a recognized engineering discipline nationally and in most states: htt…
Well that's a start. They don't offer one in my state/country yet but I'll definitely take it when they do. I think it's a necessary move. Liability should definitely be on the table as well at some point. The undertones at Blackhat and Defcon seemed to suggest some people think it's inevitable. There's nothing to be lost by adopting a more rigorous process and only much to gain. Especially with the advances in tooli…
It's not that simple. The quickest path to licensure is to graduate from an ABET-accredited engineering program (4 years), pass the fundamentals of engineering exam (which, likely being the "other disciplines" exam, requires general knowledge of engineering and science), perform engineering work supervised by a licensed engineer (I think you typically need 3 references), document your engineering work time (4 years are needed with a BS), and then pass the principles and practice in engineering exam. There are alternative paths that differ on the state level, but they take years longer, e.g., lacking the accredited BS would require something like 8 years of experience before one could sit for the FE exam. I think there's also a plan to require an MS at minimum to sit for the PE exam.
Point being, licensure is far more involved than passing one exam.
Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers
#95His distinction between 'engineer' and 'developer' is artificial and easily criticized. That isn't what is interesting in this article. There are a lot of things that are. Their method for avoiding the proliferation of different tools is interesting. His discussion of the kind of people they want, once you ignore the semantics, is interesting. They want people who take responsibility and are always pushing the bounda…
I agree that the use of the 'engineer' vs 'developer' terms in his context was not important. What does irk me is that in real life, software developers who meet the Etsy CTO's standard often can't call themselves engineers. In many countries, misrepresenting oneself as an engineer without accreditation is against the law! [1] In the U.S., there's no official occupational category for Software Engineer. It's just Sof…
Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers
#96More I see cross-engineer that do backend to fronend and more I see problem. There is no way a database guru can create a super nice UI with CSS and JavaScript. Same thing for an expert in JavaScript and web cannot be also an expert in AI, database and xyz stuff. I am all about having people touching a little bit of everything, but at the end, everyone has an expertise and they should do 80% of their time there. Mult…
"Specialization is for insects." -Robert A. Heinlein
Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers
#97His distinction between 'engineer' and 'developer' is artificial and easily criticized. That isn't what is interesting in this article. There are a lot of things that are. Their method for avoiding the proliferation of different tools is interesting. His discussion of the kind of people they want, once you ignore the semantics, is interesting. They want people who take responsibility and are always pushing the bounda…
I agree that the use of the 'engineer' vs 'developer' terms in his context was not important. What does irk me is that in real life, software developers who meet the Etsy CTO's standard often can't call themselves engineers. In many countries, misrepresenting oneself as an engineer without accreditation is against the law! [1] In the U.S., there's no official occupational category for Software Engineer. It's just Sof…
There is actually software engineers. At the U of A, where I went, Software Engineering is separate than Computing Science. Software Engineering was run by the Engineering department, and they had the same rigours as the rest of engineering has. However, Computing Science was run by the Science department.
Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers
#98Feels like we're chasing our tails on this one. We went from "programmers" to "developers" to "engineers". Every time it started well, because only people with the right mindset referred to themselves and the people they looked for that way, but pretty soon the rest catches up and the term devalues. We should just call ourselves codemonkeys and focus on doing the job well regardless.
I still default to calling myself a programmer or a coder... I'm happy to ride the social status train of "Software Engineer", but I don't pretend it's anything else, and it could swiftly be taken away if some Congress Critters got it into their heads that because in general none of us are licensed PEs we don't deserve to call ourselves engineers. I sometimes think it might be good for that to happen so that some of…
Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think a lot of engineers are motivated by other things. By contrast I think a lot of "bootcampers" are looking for a salary pop.
> I think a lot of engineers are motivated by other things. Sure, but it doesn't mean good engineers don't know what they are worth. If Etsy has hard time recruiting "engineers", Etsy should ask themselves what kind of deal they are offering in order to attract the profile they seek and not write a blog that dismiss "developers" as inferior. Because it reads like "if you're a developer stop applying", well if Etsy wa…
Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers
#100I've always thought of it as: An engineer engineers solutions, frequently from scratch or very small pieces. A developer develops solutions, often from larger pieces, focusing on implementing them to solve business needs. It's subtle but I think there is some differentiation. I think the vast majority of companies only require developers, or mostly developers, including Etsy.. because let's be honest what is Etsy doi…
That's what I've heard too. It's all about scale. Developers build specific tools using generic pieces. Think of using AWS to serve up a CMS with business-specific code hooking into a parent company's payment processor. Engineers build general tools using specific pieces. Think of building AWS DynamoDB. edit: It's not about LOC, it's about understanding systems and algorithms... the distinction between putting Lego b…
In traditional engineering, like mechanical or chemical, change in the field happens slowly. Standardizing tasks has happened just because time has allowed for it. I think professional software development/engineering/whatever you call it is trending this way.
Example: I studied chemical engineering where we learned how to size a tank that would be pressurized containing some hydro-carbon. You pressurize it to keep as much of it liquid to minimize the tank size; now you have to figure out how thick the walls of the tank need to be to handle the desired pressure based on the expected liquid composition and volume, among other things.
Are you surprised if I say this was stuff chemical engineering programs cover in the last year of study? In the previous 3 years, topics include thermodynamics, physical/organic chemistry and other much more analytical, bookish things that outsiders consider chemical engineering to be about. In oil refining, where all the money is as an undergrad, they're paying you to size a tank.
If you consider the historical timeline of when these topics could be considered "understood", the way the course plan is laid out might make more sense. To roughly break it out, we understood a lot more about lab scale chemistry pre-20th century than we did about tank sizing. Tank sizing is really heuristic and fudge-factor driven. IIRC from our textbooks, a lot of these were lab determined in the 1930's and 40's. They basically built a tank with some thickness and size, then drew up a list of liquid compositions with different properties and starting measuring pressures. The plotted data would get curve fit and, viola, a formula for how to size a tank.
You can't use the formula without understand your liquid compositions, which doesn't really work if you don't understand thermodynamics and physical chemistry, but it is also really hard to use only thermodynamics and physical chemistry to figure out how to size a tank.
So if I were to say where software is today, it's that we haven't standardized how to size the metaphorical tank, where that tank could be, e.g. different data access permissions for hospital records?