How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#121

Post by madaxe_again » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 3:58 PM UTC

cocoflunchy wrote: post #99

bambax wrote: post #93

In France everyone uses ballpoints, and yet everyone writes cursive, so I very much doubt there's any connection between the two. The weird handwriting of Americans certainly has to do with how they're taught, not what they use. I have three kids that are currently learning to write (aged 6, 7 and 10) and a great deal of time is spent forming nice, cursive letters (copying lines of frequent letter pairs to lean how t…

I wouldn't say that everyone uses ballpoints, I used fountain pens during most of my education in France and so did most of my classmates. Many (most?) teachers still require their students to use fountain pens (one of the reasons is probably the fact that you can use an eraser, so it makes for cleaner papers...). Even after getting out of school, I don't use ballpoints if I can avoid them, because they're not as fas…

Likewise - British here and fountain pens were compulsory - first and only thing I wrote with until I left school. Everything had to be handwritten, typing, pencil or ballpoint got you a fail. Regardless of the fact that I learned "joined up writing" from day zero, my handwriting still looks like a spider had an accident with an inkwell. Weirdly, identical to my uncle's.

Since, I barely write - I type everything.

Edit: also, this wasn't long ago. Finished school in 2001.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#122

Post by alextgordon » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 4:12 PM UTC

benplumley wrote: post #111

IshKebab wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same in the UK.

We were certainly taught cursive, but I don't know a single person who still uses it other than me. Their writing is (for the most part) slow and legible, mine is fast and almost unreadable. More so when I use a fountain pen. Still, it's moot - as the article author said - because I haven't had to handwrite more than my own name in the last 6 months.

There are three styles...

                   AmE         BrE
                   =========== ===========
    Italic         Cursive     Calligraphy
    Connected      ???         Handwriting
    Unconnected    Print       What you do on forms...

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#123

Post by milosh_ » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 4:47 PM UTC

fabian2k wrote: post #80

Discussions about cursive writing on the Internet confused me quite a bit until I noticed that there seems to be a pretty large difference between what I learned in Germany and what people in the US learned. What children learn in Germany for at least a few decades now looks like the following: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Vereinfachte_Ausgangssch... From what I understand, the cursive script that was taught i…

According to wikipedia, american may learn D'Nealian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Nealian which is not terribly different from what is taught in France (Écriture A : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modèles_d%27écriture_scolaire_...) or from Deutsche Normalschrift (whose t is more readable than other german scolar scripts).

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#124

Post by Retric » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 4:49 PM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #69

Retric wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two man limitations your ignoring. The arm is less precise so you need longer strokes, and changing pen pressure is much harder. Combined it's far harder to create a legable and fast script.

I’m not “ignoring” anything. All fine hand control (fencing, kitchen knife work, writing, eating with chopsticks, soldering, knitting, playing a piano, ...) uses a combination of whole-forearm motion, wrist motion, and finger motion. The human brain/body are incredibly good at translating intended action into precisely choreographed movements combining multiple muscles. The question is how much of each type of motion…

There is a wide range of comfortable shapes people can make using whole hand motions, but arms have a vastly more momentum than the tip of a pen. So for example the center of an uppercase E is much harder to do using whole hand motions if you need to stop your arm motion in the middle to add details. It can be a fairly direct tradeoff between legibility and readability. Scripts that are less legible because they lack detail can quite simply be far easier to pull off.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#125

Post by usrusr » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 5:00 PM UTC

jkovacs wrote: post #110

fabian2k wrote: post #80

Discussions about cursive writing on the Internet confused me quite a bit until I noticed that there seems to be a pretty large difference between what I learned in Germany and what people in the US learned. What children learn in Germany for at least a few decades now looks like the following: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Vereinfachte_Ausgangssch... From what I understand, the cursive script that was taught i…

Interesting, I guess there are some regional differences then, as well. This is what I learned in elementary school in the 90s (in NRW): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Deutsche_normalschrift_a... For what it's worth I still try to use it whenever I write by hand (which is rare in the first place), but often revert to print because I can't usually decipher my cursive a day later.

That's what they taught me in Bavaria during the 80ies. It changes over time as well as (how could it not) from state to state. The tiny Saarland could introduce right to left, just to piss off everybody else (and save hugely on schools, because all parents would find ways to register across the border)

Given the amount of typing that today's children will do I think it's a very good idea to teach them something that stands a chance of not being replaced by something more primitive as soon as they leave school (or much earlier, as in the case of my age group). The days of artfully written letters written on expensive paper won't come back any time soon.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#126

Post by quintusq » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 5:14 PM UTC

jkovacs wrote: post #110

fabian2k wrote: post #80

Discussions about cursive writing on the Internet confused me quite a bit until I noticed that there seems to be a pretty large difference between what I learned in Germany and what people in the US learned. What children learn in Germany for at least a few decades now looks like the following: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Vereinfachte_Ausgangssch... From what I understand, the cursive script that was taught i…

Interesting, I guess there are some regional differences then, as well. This is what I learned in elementary school in the 90s (in NRW): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Deutsche_normalschrift_a... For what it's worth I still try to use it whenever I write by hand (which is rare in the first place), but often revert to print because I can't usually decipher my cursive a day later.

This is also what I was tought during the 90'ies in NRW. However, I know from my parents that during their time (somewhere late 60'ies) it was possible to take an additional course in “Schönschrift” (nice script) which translated to the handwriting Germans have been using for centuries before: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Deutsche_Kurrentschr...

My grandparents have letters that are written in this script, and I’ve seen it used in official documents from around 1900. I fell in love with this script and try my best and learning it currently. Just looking at it will make it obvious that it’s pretty impossible to write with a ballpoint pen.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#127

Post by vsbuffalo » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 5:42 PM UTC

colinsidoti wrote: post #16

Any lefties here? I'm a lefty and feel stuck with the basic ballpoint because any other pen I try ends up with everything smudged. Not sure if that's just poor form on my part.

See Noodler's "Ben Bernanke" inks[1] which are fast drying and meant for lefties. The name is a play on the fast drying inks Bernanke is using to print more money.

[1]: http://www.gouletpens.com/noodlers-bernanke-black-3oz-bottle...

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#128

Post by rndn » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 10:03 PM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #7

boken wrote: post #3

It is most telling, to me, to hear people (none of them made from straw) admit that writer's cramp is part and parcel of a single session of taking notes or writing an hour-long exam. Professional copyists and secretaries in the early 20th century weren't biting down on their lower lips to push through the pain every time they put pen to paper during ten- and twelve-hour workdays. They just used better tools for that…

The Palmer method descends from Spencerian script, an excessively flowery and not-all-that-legible form of writing from the days when people wanted to make their writing look difficult and fancy. Writing in a fancy style is fine for calligraphers making wedding invitations or whatever, but is a poor model for teaching children or for everyday use for most people. Italic (aka chancery cursive), a script of renaissance…

This hobby was missing in my life… I always thought writing cursive is oddly rhythmic.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#129

Post by kctess5 » Mon, Aug 31, 2015, 6:39 AM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #96

sandGorgon wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how would you compare them with Gel Rollerballs ? [1] I am partial to the Parker rollerball refills - I use a Parker Chinese Laque Ambre - but do not want the inconvenience of a fountain pen. I believe a rollerball is like the Nespresso to the fountain pen's espresso. Slightly worse - but much better than ball point pens. But the best part that I like about rollerballs is how you can get an expensive experience in a…

Japanese Gel Rollerballs are also excellent. The Uni-ball UM153S Impact Gel Rollerball 1.0mm Tip (made by the awesomely-named Mitsubishi Pencil Company) is my go-to pen for everyday writing.

Those actually look almost exactly like my pens of choice from the Google supply cabinets. They are very nice, I like them better than the more common G2 because the ink doesn't glob up as badly.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#130

Post by NoGravitas » Mon, Aug 31, 2015, 12:38 PM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #7

boken wrote: post #3

It is most telling, to me, to hear people (none of them made from straw) admit that writer's cramp is part and parcel of a single session of taking notes or writing an hour-long exam. Professional copyists and secretaries in the early 20th century weren't biting down on their lower lips to push through the pain every time they put pen to paper during ten- and twelve-hour workdays. They just used better tools for that…

The Palmer method descends from Spencerian script, an excessively flowery and not-all-that-legible form of writing from the days when people wanted to make their writing look difficult and fancy. Writing in a fancy style is fine for calligraphers making wedding invitations or whatever, but is a poor model for teaching children or for everyday use for most people. Italic (aka chancery cursive), a script of renaissance…

I strongly agree with you about chancery italic as a better "standard" handwriting than Palmerian and its relatives (e.g., Zaner-Bloser, which I was taught in elementary school). It degrades less at speed, and has the advantage that it can be taught first without joins(i.e. as printing) and then have joins added later. That is, the transition from print to cursive doesn't require learning completely new letter forms.