How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#71

Post by DanBC » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 6:09 AM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #7

boken wrote: post #3

It is most telling, to me, to hear people (none of them made from straw) admit that writer's cramp is part and parcel of a single session of taking notes or writing an hour-long exam. Professional copyists and secretaries in the early 20th century weren't biting down on their lower lips to push through the pain every time they put pen to paper during ten- and twelve-hour workdays. They just used better tools for that…

The Palmer method descends from Spencerian script, an excessively flowery and not-all-that-legible form of writing from the days when people wanted to make their writing look difficult and fancy. Writing in a fancy style is fine for calligraphers making wedding invitations or whatever, but is a poor model for teaching children or for everyday use for most people. Italic (aka chancery cursive), a script of renaissance…

Briem is great, but can tend to very similar zig-zags when written at speed.

Modern systems aim for legibility, at speed.

Anyone wanting to see different systems used during 20th century might be interested in this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Handwriting-Twentieth-Century-Rosema...

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#72

Post by fsloth » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 6:34 AM UTC

Fountain pens rule. But the problem with acquiring them is that nowadays a lot of fountain pens seem to be made to look fancy and not to write well.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#73

Post by fian » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 6:37 AM UTC

colinsidoti wrote: post #16

Any lefties here? I'm a lefty and feel stuck with the basic ballpoint because any other pen I try ends up with everything smudged. Not sure if that's just poor form on my part.

Yep, have similar problems with ballpoints and soft-leaded pencil.

At the moment I am mostly using Artline 200 Fine 0.4mm pens. These are not ballpoints and the think ink lines dry fast, so the text is hard to smudge. They are not without issue though. As the nibs are only crimped into place and writing with your left hand means you are pushing down and to the right; the nibs slowly get pushed up into the pen body. So I have to replace them when the nib disappears which is before the ink runs out.

If I am forced to use ballpoints for any lengthy text I end up rotating the paper close to 90 degrees and writing at an extreme angle to get the pen to drag rather than push across the page.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#74

Post by jacobolus » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 6:43 AM UTC

Nice HN discussion about handwriting from a few years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2500864

I like this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2501152 – a partial quotation:

> Almost all US schools have standardized on forms of looped cursive (e.g. Parker Penmanship, Zaner-Bloser) -- a set of letterforms designed not for handwriting, but for the movable type printing press! Looped cursive was made to be attractive with the fewest unique joins possible so that printers needed to stock fewer pieces for their movable type presses. Looped cursive is slower, less legible, and more difficult to learn than forms of writing actually made to be written (such as cursive italic).

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#75

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 6:44 AM UTC

This is why I started using Uniball Eye pens. They require so much less pressure, it's quite a relief for my hand. And when I picked them up, I started using cursive again in my handwriting.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#76

Post by stewbrew » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 6:48 AM UTC

boken wrote: post #3

It is most telling, to me, to hear people (none of them made from straw) admit that writer's cramp is part and parcel of a single session of taking notes or writing an hour-long exam. Professional copyists and secretaries in the early 20th century weren't biting down on their lower lips to push through the pain every time they put pen to paper during ten- and twelve-hour workdays. They just used better tools for that…

Since Bic Cristal pens are my writing tool of choice, I have to say I find it strange you only mention Bic. Maybe a Bic pen isn't the right tool for how you write, but you can definitely use it without getting cramps.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#77

Post by stewbrew » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 6:54 AM UTC

kctess5 wrote: post #30

I've almost exclusively used fountain pens for about 5 years now, and it's been amazing. Modern fountain pens don't generally leak much, and they are SO much better to write with than a basic Bic/generic ballpoint. The primary difference is that you don't have to push down at all which saves your hand from a huge amount of stress after a long writing session. I really don't understand why more people don't use them t…

I used to use fountain pens for a long time but returned to Bic Cristal ballpoints a few years ago. They just work and they are available everywhere.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#78

Post by vsbuffalo » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 7:18 AM UTC

I love fountain pens and highly encourage everyone to try them (with a good notebook helps). First, ballpoint pens are wasteful — 1.6 billion pens a year are thrown away[1]. Fountain pens are reusable, ink is comparatively cheap and lasts forever, and finding your ink is a fun and personal experience (I really like the "bulletproof" Noodler's inks which are waterproof, bleach proof, etc.). Fountain pens last forever — which is why folks still hunt around for 40+ year old used ones.

Second, it really does make writing fun. I hated writing — my handwriting is messy, it's slow, and it's not as easy as typing. As the article argues, a good fountain pen makes it much, and in my experience much more enjoyable.

Third, it doesn't need to be expensive. Get a Lamy Safari (EF), a Lamy converter and a bottle of Noodlers ink. I also love my Faber Castell Loom[2] (it's the smoothest pen I own), and I carry around a Kaweco Al-Sport[3] everywhere (it's the perfect pocket pen).

[1] http://www.epa.gov/superfund/students/clas_act/haz-ed/ff06.p... [2] http://www.gouletpens.com/faber-castell-loom-metallic-orange... [3] http://www.jetpens.com/Kaweco-AL-Sport-Fountain-Pen-Fine-Nib...

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#79

Post by spc476 » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 7:19 AM UTC

colinsidoti wrote: post #16

Any lefties here? I'm a lefty and feel stuck with the basic ballpoint because any other pen I try ends up with everything smudged. Not sure if that's just poor form on my part.

I took a calligraphy workshop, and since I'm a lefty, I ended up having to hold the paper with the top edge to my right and write vertically down the page. That way, the letters came out looking correct and I didn't smudge the paper.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#80

Post by fabian2k » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 7:23 AM UTC

Discussions about cursive writing on the Internet confused me quite a bit until I noticed that there seems to be a pretty large difference between what I learned in Germany and what people in the US learned.

What children learn in Germany for at least a few decades now looks like the following: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Vereinfachte_Ausgangssch...

From what I understand, the cursive script that was taught in US schools was much more complicated with lots of little flourishes. The simplified cursive script seems a lot more practical to me, and I wonder if that is a factor in the the decline of cursive writing. The negative reactions to cursive writing I've read on the internet from people in the US seemed a lot stronger than anything I've ever heard from Germans.