How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#41

Post by mirimir » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 3:06 AM UTC

eitally wrote: post #18

ryandrake wrote: post #17

Is there even a point to learning cursive anymore? Seems like a waste of time if they're still teaching it to kids. I can't think of any practical purpose for it. Knowing cursive is about as useful as knowing how to use an abacus.

Knowing how to use an abacus makes early arithmetic so much easier for young school children. I think knowing cursive is still useful, too, because if you do know how to use ligatures to join letters you can write MUCH faster than if you have to write in print. As an engineer, I prefer smallcaps when I need someone else to read my handwriting, but if it's just for my own consumption (task lists, notes, etc) it's faux…

I also use faux cursive. I find it faster to print initial letters. Also printed "m", "n", "r", "s" and "w" are as fast, and more likely legible. That evolved over many years of note taking. I used to prefer Rapidograph, but now its rollerball.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#42

Post by sandGorgon » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 3:08 AM UTC

boken wrote: post #3

It is most telling, to me, to hear people (none of them made from straw) admit that writer's cramp is part and parcel of a single session of taking notes or writing an hour-long exam. Professional copyists and secretaries in the early 20th century weren't biting down on their lower lips to push through the pain every time they put pen to paper during ten- and twelve-hour workdays. They just used better tools for that…

since you went through the research, what do you think of the other "methods". I ask because of this:

The Palmer Method began to fall out of popularity in the 1950s and was eventually supplanted by the Zaner-Bloser method, which sought to teach children manuscript before teaching them cursive, in order to provide them with a means of written expression as soon as possible, and thus develop writing skills.[6] The D'Nealian method, introduced in 1978, sought to address problems raised by the Zaner-Bloser method, returning to a more cursive style. The Palmer company stopped publishing in the 1980s.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#43

Post by drifkin » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 3:10 AM UTC

colinsidoti wrote: post #16

Any lefties here? I'm a lefty and feel stuck with the basic ballpoint because any other pen I try ends up with everything smudged. Not sure if that's just poor form on my part.

I'm also left handed and have tried out way too many pens. As others have suggested, Uniball Jetstream pens are fantastic and are nearly impossible to smudge by accident. They also come in a variety of sizes. I really like the 0.38mm for taking notes on the small margins of academic papers.

The main pens I've been using these days are disposable fountain pens [1]. They write great and somehow the ink rarely smudges, though more often than with the Jetstreams. But overall I find it more pleasant to write with fountain pens.

[1] http://pilotpen.us/brands/varsity/varsity/

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#44

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 3:11 AM UTC

bane wrote: post #32

ryandrake wrote: post #17

Is there even a point to learning cursive anymore? Seems like a waste of time if they're still teaching it to kids. I can't think of any practical purpose for it. Knowing cursive is about as useful as knowing how to use an abacus.

I think it's useful for being able to read old documents. My parents and grandparents wrote only in cursive and I'm finding I have to read their writing to younger people who can't read it.

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Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#45

Post by WhoBeI » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 3:11 AM UTC

Sustained fine grained and fluid hand movement is more difficult to learn then drawing a sequence of geometric shapes and a lot more challenging to read. School should be about understanding ideas and the value of critical thinking. Using or requiring the use of an inefficient presentation method does not help with that mission.

I suppose the mass move away from cursive writing started with the printing press. By simplifying the symbols we gained a powerful tool to spread the ideas they convey. This has just become more true with the computer which, much like the printing press, has a much easier time with distinct disconnected symbols.

I believe it's more important to learn how to write and express your ideas using all available technologies then spending time learning the particulars of one.

The hammer doesn't need to be beautiful to build a beautiful house it needs to be efficient. Writing does not need to be elegant to convey a beautiful message.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#46

Post by esaym » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 3:15 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #17

Is there even a point to learning cursive anymore? Seems like a waste of time if they're still teaching it to kids. I can't think of any practical purpose for it. Knowing cursive is about as useful as knowing how to use an abacus.

I don't know why anyone would want to write in print, I can't stand it.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#47

Post by sandGorgon » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 3:16 AM UTC

kctess5 wrote: post #30

I've almost exclusively used fountain pens for about 5 years now, and it's been amazing. Modern fountain pens don't generally leak much, and they are SO much better to write with than a basic Bic/generic ballpoint. The primary difference is that you don't have to push down at all which saves your hand from a huge amount of stress after a long writing session. I really don't understand why more people don't use them t…

how would you compare them with Gel Rollerballs ? [1]

I am partial to the Parker rollerball refills - I use a Parker Chinese Laque Ambre - but do not want the inconvenience of a fountain pen.

I believe a rollerball is like the Nespresso to the fountain pen's espresso. Slightly worse - but much better than ball point pens.

But the best part that I like about rollerballs is how you can get an expensive experience in a cheap pen. For example Mont Blanc refills can be hacked to fit a cheap G2 [2]

[1] http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/241755-which-p...

[2] http://www.instructables.com/id/Save-$200-in-2-minutes-and-h...

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#48

Post by hinkley » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 3:19 AM UTC

What about gel ink?

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#49

Post by LyndsySimon » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 3:21 AM UTC

kctess5 wrote: post #30

I've almost exclusively used fountain pens for about 5 years now, and it's been amazing. Modern fountain pens don't generally leak much, and they are SO much better to write with than a basic Bic/generic ballpoint. The primary difference is that you don't have to push down at all which saves your hand from a huge amount of stress after a long writing session. I really don't understand why more people don't use them t…

I'm a year into the fountain pen habit, and have an absurd collection at this point.

My daily carry is a Pilot Vanishing Point (EF or a custom-ground 0.6mm italic) and a Sailor Sapporo Mini (hard fine). Those are about $175 and $200 retail, respectively.

Note that I didn't pay anywhere near that, as I've been buying, trading, repairing, and selling pens since shortly after I started. In total, I'm slightly in the black at the moment.

I recommend Reddit's /r/fountainpens - there is an IRC server listed in the sidebar, and it's surprisingly active.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#50

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 3:22 AM UTC

christianmann wrote: post #5

rodgerd wrote: post #2

This is rubbish. Ballpoint pens had long been in existence before I went to school, and I learned cursive. My daughter's French classmates are all, today, taught superb cursive handwriting.

Okay. So was I, but primarily I don't see people using it for everyday writing. Why do you suppose that is the case? Most people know how to use cursive, but they choose not to do so.

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