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How Cheap Can Solar Get?

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Re: How Cheap Can Solar Get?

#121

Post by prostoalex »

1971genocide wrote: post #2

Does anyone know methods for hackers to help and learn more about solar ? It it possible for the mathematically trained to easily immerse and innovate in the industry ? It it possible to manufacture solar cells "in your garage" so to speak ?

There's a solar energy course on edX, where they walk you through designing a photovoltaic system

https://www.edx.org/course/solar-energy-delftx-et3034x

Although most of the current innovation seems to be focused on the panel efficiency, and that area requires some understanding of Materials Science

http://www.rdmag.com/news/2014/01/understanding-perovskite-b...

Re: How Cheap Can Solar Get?

#122

Post by castratikron »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #94
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think this way until I started dating a geologist. She brought down my optimism when she detailed the ways that the environment is ravaged to extract the materials necessary to create solar panels, wind turbines, and so on. Rare earths are great for handling high heat, but their resistance to reaction also means it takes a LOT of nasty chemicals to purify the ore. Not that we should keep on burning fossil f…

Not all PV panels, wind turbines or EV car designs use rare earths e.g. Tesla doesn't use any in their motors. Also, lots of other things that aren't good for the environment use rare earths. Kind of weird and illogical that people only care about it when you're trying to do good.

Are you sure about Tesla? What material do they use for the permanent magnets in their motors? I know the motor has to contain permanent magnets since Tesla cards have regenerative braking.

Re: How Cheap Can Solar Get?

#123

Post by brightsize »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #93
fpgaminer wrote: post #9

If I could install solar today I would, regardless of cost (apartment living prevents it). That may sound crazy, but I theorize that when you consider externalities the cost of grid electricity already far exceeds the cost of solar. It's going to cost humanity a whole lot of money to both survive and fix the damage we're dealing to the environment today. I'd rather pay more now for solar, than pay through the nose la…

In many places you can pay extra to get your electricity from less carbon intensive generation sources without actually changing anything in your home, it may be worth looking into if you feel strongly about the issue. In the UK Co-operative energy and Ecotricity are two that I'm aware of. The other thing you can do is invest in a "community solar garden" project, which basically means you pay for the panels, and get…

Avista Utilities, here in Washington state, is offering community solar in a nice, self-contained package. You lease a panel in their solar farm, they install and maintain it, and you get a credit on your electric bill for whatever it generates. At the end of the lease you will presumably have a positive ROI from it though that of course depends on actual power generated. It seems like a really nice way to "go solar" that's accessible to anyone with the cash to buy the lease. http://www.avistautilities.com/services/Pages/communitysolar...

Re: How Cheap Can Solar Get?

#124

Post by plorg »

fpgaminer wrote: post #9

If I could install solar today I would, regardless of cost (apartment living prevents it). That may sound crazy, but I theorize that when you consider externalities the cost of grid electricity already far exceeds the cost of solar. It's going to cost humanity a whole lot of money to both survive and fix the damage we're dealing to the environment today. I'd rather pay more now for solar, than pay through the nose la…

Even a few years ago, the amortized price per kWh of installing, operating, and maintaining a solar installation was lower for an end-user than the price they would be paying the utility for electricity, in most parts of the U.S.

In places where the regulatory regime and utilities are sane with regards to metering and feed-in tariffs putting in a solar installation is already a winning proposition.

Re: How Cheap Can Solar Get?

#125

Post by toomuchtodo »

meragrin wrote: post #70
mtgx wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very least the governments can do is eliminate all subsidies to coal, oil and natural gas. They've had them for decades. I don't think it's healthy for a society to prop up an industry that long with subsidies, especially when it's one of the most profitable.

Could you list the subsidies you're against? All I ever find is general business items or for non-conventional fuels.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/18/fossil-fu...

Re: How Cheap Can Solar Get?

#126

Post by toomuchtodo »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #80
slxh wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably also should include the CO2 footprint of energy storage/batteries if you plan on going 100% solar.

Wildly under-appreciated point. Many of those batteries die out quicker than you might think, and hold way less energy density than gasoline. Plus the environmental costs (much nastier stuff than CO2) of extracting rare earths and elements like lithium are huge. Since most of us on HN don't live in the global south or northwest China, we've never seen the breathtaking environmental devastation that brings us these "g…

Seriously? For real? Lead acid batteries are extremely clean to recycle when done properly, and even though they have a short (~5-8 year life, depending on depth of discharge and cycle count) life, you simply drop into your local auto supply store to recycle them and pick up new ones.

We are literally pumping hundreds to thousands tons per day of CO2 in the atmosphere with coal, not to mention mercury and radium, and people are worried about batteries?

Re: How Cheap Can Solar Get?

#127

Post by slxh »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #126
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wildly under-appreciated point. Many of those batteries die out quicker than you might think, and hold way less energy density than gasoline. Plus the environmental costs (much nastier stuff than CO2) of extracting rare earths and elements like lithium are huge. Since most of us on HN don't live in the global south or northwest China, we've never seen the breathtaking environmental devastation that brings us these "g…

Seriously? For real? Lead acid batteries are extremely clean to recycle when done properly, and even though they have a short (~5-8 year life, depending on depth of discharge and cycle count) life, you simply drop into your local auto supply store to recycle them and pick up new ones. We are literally pumping hundreds to thousands tons per day of CO2 in the atmosphere with coal, not to mention mercury and radium, and…

Tesla's Powerwall uses Lithium Ion batteries, so even if you are right, it doesn't apply in that case.

Re: How Cheap Can Solar Get?

#128

Post by pjc50 »

castratikron wrote: post #122
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all PV panels, wind turbines or EV car designs use rare earths e.g. Tesla doesn't use any in their motors. Also, lots of other things that aren't good for the environment use rare earths. Kind of weird and illogical that people only care about it when you're trying to do good.

Are you sure about Tesla? What material do they use for the permanent magnets in their motors? I know the motor has to contain permanent magnets since Tesla cards have regenerative braking.

http://my.teslamotors.com/roadster/technology/motor

No magnets, induction motors.

Re: How Cheap Can Solar Get?

#129

Post by ciconia »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #78
fpgaminer wrote: post #9

If I could install solar today I would, regardless of cost (apartment living prevents it). That may sound crazy, but I theorize that when you consider externalities the cost of grid electricity already far exceeds the cost of solar. It's going to cost humanity a whole lot of money to both survive and fix the damage we're dealing to the environment today. I'd rather pay more now for solar, than pay through the nose la…

I used to think this way until I started dating a geologist. She brought down my optimism when she detailed the ways that the environment is ravaged to extract the materials necessary to create solar panels, wind turbines, and so on. Rare earths are great for handling high heat, but their resistance to reaction also means it takes a LOT of nasty chemicals to purify the ore. Not that we should keep on burning fossil f…

It's funny how the current debate regarding sustainable energy is always about production, not consumption. Somehow consumption is always taken as a given, about which nothing can be done.

It's obvious modern societies are wasteful - energy, food, water, transportation - but everybody is talking about how to increase production efficiency, no one is talking about how to decrease over-consumption.

Re: How Cheap Can Solar Get?

#130

Post by ZeroGravitas »

walshemj wrote: post #77
fpgaminer wrote: post #9

If I could install solar today I would, regardless of cost (apartment living prevents it). That may sound crazy, but I theorize that when you consider externalities the cost of grid electricity already far exceeds the cost of solar. It's going to cost humanity a whole lot of money to both survive and fix the damage we're dealing to the environment today. I'd rather pay more now for solar, than pay through the nose la…

Even in the UK with a massive government tax break our set of panels will take 8 or so years to break even - and we have an almost perfect south facing roof. Makes sense if you own the property and have the spare cash to take the free money (8% yield tax free) - though the UK government is reducing the subsidy

For the north american audience, it's worth pointing out that the UK is as northerly as Canada, so its not ideal for solar, though it does have a part to play I think.
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