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Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

arstechnica.co.uk

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Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#111

Post by ssharp »

mikeash wrote: post #100
jawngee wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

from FW 400 -> 800 you could use an adaptor, but for Thunderbolt you're out of luck completely No you aren't: http://www.amazon.com/Apple-Thunderbolt-to-FireWire-Adapter/...

That only works in one direction. You can use it to connect FireWire devices to a computer with Thunderbolt, but you can't use it to connect Thunderbolt devices to a computer with FireWire. Contrast with USB. I can go out and buy a USB storage device brand new off the shelf in 2015, plug it into an iMac from 1998, and it will work. It will be slow but it will work out of the box.

I don't have a thunderbolt device yet, but I wouldn't expect the behavior you're talking about. Being able to connect my old firewire devices might be nice, but I wouldn't expect to be able to use new devices on an old port.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#112

Post by pachydermic »

Roritharr wrote: post #53

I'm kinda disapointed about the whole Type-C scenario. Now when you've got a Type-C Port, you just don't know what it can do. It could be anything from a USB 2 Port, up to a USB 3.1 + 20A Power + Thunderbolt Port. You can't see this from looking at it, and Spec Sheets today have a problem of listing the version numbers of HDMI and DisplayPort Ports, I don't see them suddenly becoming very concise about this. The prom…

Good thing computer prices are so ruthlessly deflationary!

It just doesn't really make sense to worry about this kind of stuff from a practical point of view. Sure, maybe it'll be a pain for historians and conservationists. But for everyone else, we'll just be constantly buying new computers anyways, right?

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#113

Post by mikeash »

ssharp wrote: post #111
mikeash wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only works in one direction. You can use it to connect FireWire devices to a computer with Thunderbolt, but you can't use it to connect Thunderbolt devices to a computer with FireWire. Contrast with USB. I can go out and buy a USB storage device brand new off the shelf in 2015, plug it into an iMac from 1998, and it will work. It will be slow but it will work out of the box.

I don't have a thunderbolt device yet, but I wouldn't expect the behavior you're talking about. Being able to connect my old firewire devices might be nice, but I wouldn't expect to be able to use new devices on an old port.

There's no reason to expect it. But USB does it anyway, and it's really nice to know that I can buy USB 3 devices and use them with my USB 2 computers as long as I don't need top performance.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#114

Post by matthewmacleod »

genericuser wrote: post #96
jacobolus wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple using a standard connector, dream on. Apple is clearly pushing heavily behind the scenes in both the USB-IF and with Intel/Thunderbolt to drive USB Type C ports. Reportedly their engineers did much of the work designing the port. Looking at their one-port Macbook, they’re obviously heavily invested in USB Type C’s success. I assume every future Mac is going to be mostly USB Type C ports. Can you clarify what…

I just want to thank you for qualifying your description of Apple's contribution to USB-C in a correct manner, as opposed to perpetuating the myth that Apple invented USB-C. It's initial conception having come out of the USB 3.1 development by AMD, HP, Intel, and Microsoft. It is refreshing to see someone not spreading the revisionist history that has been popular on this subject.

I have literally never seen anybody claim that Apple invented USB-C, and I read a lot of stupidity. Was this really common?

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#115

Post by matthewmacleod »

outworlder wrote: post #57

So, will Apple finally be able to refresh the Thunderbolt Display? I got an old one I want to sell before it gets obsolete. I guess the time is now. Edit: "Thunderbolt 3 integrates USB 3.1, optional 100W power delivery, 5K @ 60Hz display." Optional power delivery? Optional nowadays just mean "will be removed before even reaching production"

Optional power delivery? Optional nowadays just mean "will be removed before even reaching production"

Your point is taken, but we also have to consider if that would even be possible. 100W is not a power level that a laptop device is going to be able to output, so it clearly can't be standard. It's good to have a standardised option, however.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#116

Post by monocasa »

ghshephard wrote: post #26
awalton wrote: post #18

Ugh Intel. We just fixed the USB problem of "I can't figure out which way to plug this thing in", why do you have to go and add the complication of "Wait, is this a Thunderbolt or USB C device/port?" This is why we can't have nice things.

I think you've got it backwards - if I'm reading this correctly, and you own a (for the sake of argument), 2016 MacBook Pro - your Thunderbolt 3 ports will support everything. USB/Thunderbolt are now using the same physical interface (no need for dongles), and Thunderbolt 3 will support USB 3.1. In the incredibly rare (will likely never be seen by an average consumer) scenario that you have some high-end equipment th…

But, ostensibly, there's going to be thunderbolt devices soon which, while having a USB Type-C plug, won't work in a regular USB port despite the Type-C plug.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#117

Post by rikkus »

Already__Taken wrote: post #10

Seems to be trading all our different ports with the problem of having all levels of different cables? This port is going to be very expensive for the manufactures. If it does everything I'm going to need a bunch. Does anything stop OEMs making a row of identical ports that only 1 charges my laptop, only a couple take can use the fastest cable and I'm sure all sorts of potential shenanigans,

It's a good point. With my current USB devices, I know that the short cable will charge my phone properly and the long one won't. I know that I've seen a 'charge only' cable. I'm not sure this will be fixed with the newer USB standards.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#118

Post by tw04 »

wlesieutre wrote: post #107
outworlder wrote: post #57

So, will Apple finally be able to refresh the Thunderbolt Display? I got an old one I want to sell before it gets obsolete. I guess the time is now. Edit: "Thunderbolt 3 integrates USB 3.1, optional 100W power delivery, 5K @ 60Hz display." Optional power delivery? Optional nowadays just mean "will be removed before even reaching production"

Universal Serial Bus. With optional universalness. I think Roritharr is right, this is the beginning of the end for the great era of standardization that USB brought. If there was a port and a cable, you pretty much knew it would work for everything the port should do. DisplayPort and HDMI port/cable versioning have been a colossal pain for me. GPU spec lists on shopping sites don't even list what version they suppor…

That is completely inaccurate. USB-C is backwards compatible with older versions of USB. And just like older versions of USB, the version directly determined capabilities. They did make an effort with USB3 to make the ports blue, but even that isn't universally true.

USB is already "that mess" depending on what it is you need the port to do. Let me know how that USB-powered device that needs 90W does when you plug it into a port that's only 1.0 capable.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#119

Post by ghshephard »

monocasa wrote: post #116
ghshephard wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've got it backwards - if I'm reading this correctly, and you own a (for the sake of argument), 2016 MacBook Pro - your Thunderbolt 3 ports will support everything. USB/Thunderbolt are now using the same physical interface (no need for dongles), and Thunderbolt 3 will support USB 3.1. In the incredibly rare (will likely never be seen by an average consumer) scenario that you have some high-end equipment th…

But, ostensibly, there's going to be thunderbolt devices soon which, while having a USB Type-C plug, won't work in a regular USB port despite the Type-C plug.

Given that USB 3.1 + Type C ports support USB PD (100 Watts), and 10 Gigabit signaling rate (7.1 Gigabits demonstrated transmit) - the need for thunderbolt devices will be so excessively rare for the average consumer as to be a non-issue.

For the few Pro Users who Specifically paid a small fortune for their thunderbolt device - they will certainly know which port to plug it into, there will be zero confusion.

What's nice (awesome) about this, though, is that when Apple/Microsoft/Sony/Asus/whoever decides to differentiate their high-end products by offering Thunderbolt 3 ports that people will rarely have a use for, they can actually make use of them immediately as USB 3.1 ports. Right now I have a MacBook Air w/2 USB + 1 Thunderbolt Port. I have too carry Ethernet Dongles for both Thunderbolt and USB to cover the situation in which I run out of ports and need ethernet. And I frequently run into a situation in which I've used up my two USB ports, and my third adapter isn't thunderbolt (I know, I should carry a Thunderbolt -> USB adapter, but god, I carry so many cables already).

In this new world - I would have three, fully functional USB ports, with one of them also capable of functioning as a thunderbolt port should I have a Thunderbolt peripheral.

Awesomeness.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#120

Post by bryanlarsen »

monocasa wrote: post #116
ghshephard wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've got it backwards - if I'm reading this correctly, and you own a (for the sake of argument), 2016 MacBook Pro - your Thunderbolt 3 ports will support everything. USB/Thunderbolt are now using the same physical interface (no need for dongles), and Thunderbolt 3 will support USB 3.1. In the incredibly rare (will likely never be seen by an average consumer) scenario that you have some high-end equipment th…

But, ostensibly, there's going to be thunderbolt devices soon which, while having a USB Type-C plug, won't work in a regular USB port despite the Type-C plug.

Source? Sure, it's theoretically possible that a TB3 5K@60Hz monitor won't work when plugged into a USB Type C port. But there would be no good reason for that, it should downgrade smoothly to either 5K@30Hz or 4K@60Hz.
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